What change in the movies ticks you off the most?

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

after much "hot potato" passing, finally throw the ring in the fire

Excellent, surely you can now join Harad (he who is knowledgeable in film-making) and re-write 'The Lord of the Rings' as Tolkien would have wanted it. Of course, he didnt know about the advances in CGI that we are blessed with in the '??????' whatever age!

All hail Grond, for surely he has answered the prayers of the 'great unwashed'?

Harad, when you make your next film, be sure to ask Grond for 'scriptwriting' assistance, for you will surely be great among men!

Grond · Dec 30, 2001

Alas, ReadWryt, Cir, Tal, and Acalagon are all moderators and can fry your butt anytime they want. But the forum does have rules. I may disagree with you and vice versa. You attack something sacrosanct to us and trivialize our ideas. For two weeks now we have been spit upon and when we finally start to defend ourselves, you cry foul. Well get real. As I said before, this was our forum first. I have repeatedly stated I enjoyed the movie but disagree with your vision of PJ's ME. You have derided us in much the same fashion as is your right.

Besides it was you who said,
"Why not steal a scene from "Bladerunner" where Saruman admits he's a replicant and lets Frodo go."

and then, "Good one.
Or "Ground Hogs Day" where Aragorn wakes up every morning and has to wrestle Sauron with the Palantir. Finally he learns how to make Arwen love him and his nightmare ends.
Not an expert but a talented amateur."

I fail to see why you're so upset... I was just putting in my two cents worth. I thought you were encouraging different settings for the work and submitted my contribution. BTW, I like your adaptation better than mine. It was very good.

Goro Shimura · Dec 30, 2001

Fight Scenes replace great dialog

The scenes I missed the most were...

1) Strider attempting to win Frodo's trust at the prancing Pony.

2) Bilbo offering to take the ring to Mordor at the council. (Boromir laughing until he realized everyone respects the hobbit.)

3) Gandalf's conversation with Saruman-- especially where he changes from "Saruman the white" to "Saruman of many colors". (What's going to happen when Gandalf goes white in the Two Towers?)

4) The discussion of the fellowship about why they should go to Minas Tirith while Frodo was thinking of where to go.

Strider hardly makes an appearance in the film. There are almost no tracking scenes. Instead we get this Action Hero guy who is knifed by his girlfriend and who sets a couple Nazgul on fire. (It was much better in the book where they attacked invisibly.)

I would much rather have had more dialog taken directly from Tolkien than all of these modern kung-fu scenes (and the leap across the staircase scene.) This is LOTR, not Jackie Chan!

Mearas · Dec 30, 2001

Saruman's status

Originally posted by aragil
PJ was not extending beyond the books to portray Saruman as being to some degree under the control of Sauron. Before anybody jumps on me, I also said that PJ NEEDS to show that Saruman wants to get the ring for himself as some point in the Two Towers. If PJ does not do this, than he will have mis-represented Saruman's character.

I think it's entirely consistent for the movie to portray Saruman as under the control of Sauron. There's a passage in TTT (Chapter VIII, "The Road to Isengard") where, after describing Isengard and Orthanc, Tolkein wrote:

"But Saruman had slowly shaped [Isengard] to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived--for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength."

Also, in the movie, doesn't Saurman almost immediately accuse Gandalf of hiding the Ring from him in the Shire? I don't recall the exact exchanges, but the scene did convey to me that S. wants the ring for himself.

Mearas · Dec 30, 2001

Re: Fight Scenes replace great dialog

Originally posted by Goroshimura
The scenes I missed the most were...

2) Bilbo offering to take the ring to Mordor at the council. (Boromir laughing until he realized everyone respects the hobbit.)

I, too, missed Bilbo's speech. Of course, I think that the entire Council scene was awful and did no one justice.

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Harad, I relish your description of me as a 'fundamentalist' though sadly I somewhat fail to hit the mark. That you do not understand or value the opinion of others, albeit, those whom you share a bed with, I find great difficulty in taking you as seriously as you would expect. In so much as I appreciate your views and the humour you add to this forum, you are not the 'instigator' you like to think you are.

I for one, have tried to remain impartial to the 'rantings' of the sicophants who frequent this humble forum. I have remained impartial while you are your colleagues have tried to demean those who hold Tolkien as the 'primary' and Peter Jackson the 'secondary' in reverance of this great work. Long before you arrived, discussions were afoot pertaining to the relevance or accuracy of Tolkiens work. Though since you only acknowledge the 'producer' over the 'author', it is difficult to continue with reasoned debate.

Do not dare to offer an opinion of me based on your own ignorance of this forum and that which it holds dear. This was here long before you decided you had an opinion.

Do I respect your opinion? Of course I do; you have brought much to this forum that has been wanting, though you and those who share your ignorance have also managed to ridicule those who stroke wives and girlfriends (do you understand that?) and not each other. If precociousness is your driver for debate, then woe to the 'great unwashed' whom you have so deeply offended, for I include myself in that legion.

why not leave this forum and set up another one where you can stroke each other in your foul caves of bile.

You are already in the caves of bile my friend.

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Where do you see 'Moderator' under my name?

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Because 'caves of bile' is difficult to top!

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Absolutely; Harad; I love you! Though Male stroking is out of the question!

Foe-Hammer · Dec 30, 2001

don't stop now!

I want to see how this thing is going to list 10,000 views.

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Did Orlando Blooms (Legolas) bowmanship remind you of Crow from 'Hawk The Slayer'? He looks nothing like Crow before you say it.

He did for me, but then maybe I am showing my age!

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/hawkslayer/index.html

Thorin · Dec 30, 2001

Re: Saruman's status

Originally posted by Mearas

I think it's entirely consistent for the movie to portray Saruman as under the control of Sauron. There's a passage in TTT (Chapter VIII, "The Road to Isengard") where, after describing Isengard and Orthanc, Tolkein wrote:

"But Saruman had slowly shaped [Isengard] to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived--for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength."

That is the whole point Mearas. Saruman was deceived! Tolkien portrays Saruman only for himself, thinking that he would use Sauron as a stepping stone for his own purposes. Saruman didn't realize that he was really doing what the Dark Lord wanted. But he was in it for himself. That is made clear in the first book. The movie makes Saruman as being in direct league with Sauron, his crony, you might say. In the book, Saruman tries to convince Gandalf to get the ring so that the wizards might rule. Gandalf tells him that there is no "we". Only one may wield the ring at one time, which proves even more that Saruman was in for himself and wanted the ring for himself. Telling Gandalf to join forces with Sauron in the movie does not show Saruman's character truthfully in terms of the want for the ring. That is why he sends his orcs after the fellowship and takes rule over the orcs of Mordor. He wants it for himself. Folks watching the movie now will think that Saruman is getting the ring for his master Sauron. False, false, false.

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

To add to Thorins extremely inciteful interpretation;

Quote from the Sil;

'Thus the wise were troubled, but none had yet percieved that Curunir (Saruman) had turned to dark thoughts and was already a traitor in heart; for he desired that he and no other should find the Great Ring, so that he might wield it himself and order all the world to his will. Too long had he studied the ways of Sauron in hope to defeat him, and now he envied him as a rival rather than hated his works.'

This had always been in his heart, and he had never revealed this to Sauron, even while using the Palantir.

Foe-Hammer · Dec 30, 2001

Still,

it is very clear that in the movie Saruman tries to convince Gandalf that the two of them could rule with the ring. That is an exclusion of Sauron and an inclusion of Gandalf.
It is true that Saruman is portrayed as working with Sauron also and without the part I just quoted I would totally agree, but that part IS in the movie and must be included in any interpretations of Saruman's true intent.
You could argue that Sauron commanded Saruman to tempt Gandalf with the offer. Conversly, you could argue that Saruman wanted the ring for himself and planned on betraying Sauron.

We are talking about the movie following the book, etc. All we really get in the book is Sarumans attempts at the ring for himself and the eventual betrayal of Sauron. We know that he was in contact and in cahoots with Sauron. Tolkien just didn't think far enough to make Saruman a complete character by adding the dialogue that would have happened between Sauron and Saruman.

In PJ's version we have the same elements, but his focus is on his attempts at the ring for himself. It is not an attempt to shift the character of Saruman. It was an attempt to make him a more real character, which is an improvement.

Ancalagon · Dec 30, 2001

Foe;

I understand your thoughts entirely. Though I suppose the problem really eminates from the fact that Saruman is Saurons sidekick, which you and I both know, Saruman is not. He is, for all his faults somewhat a loose canon in this sordid affair. Problem is, that was not shown to us in the movie. Whether for good or ill, whether in theTwo Towers or not, we can still recognise somewhat of a dissolution that just doesnt quite fit. That is my humble opinion and I feel fairly strongly about it.

beren · Dec 30, 2001

postmod in LotR?

PJ changes the text in a way no one's mentioned yet -- and I've gotta get it off my chest. The film has two narrators: Galadriel narrates the Prologue. Later we hear Saruman: "...the hour grows late, and Gandalf the Gray comes to Isengard, seeking my council," or something like that. Presumably he is speaking telepathically to Gandalf, but he is also narrating to us, the audience. Why do only Saruman and Galadriel get to speak to us directly? Because both are in possession of seeing technology (if I can call it that), the Palantir, and Galadriel's wok full of water that you all know the name of, but I don't. Someone else has seeing technology, and that's PJ himself. That's why Saruman looks directly at the camera, at us, when he says "I have seen it." I like to imagine that the prologue's visions of the past come to us via Galadriel's pool of water (she speaks, after all, of "things that were").

How does all this amount to a change in the text? Because it's all hugely postmodern and self-conscious, and is therefore completely alien to the spirit of Tolkien, who is about as anti-modernist as a writer can get in the 20th century. There, that feels better. Thanks.

ReadWryt · Dec 30, 2001

Harad,

A quick question. If I take a photograph of you and lay tracing paper over it, then loosely draw an overly simple charachature using you in the forground and fill the background in with what I care to, have I indeed made a drawing of you?

beren · Dec 30, 2001

Readwryt,

A quick answer. Yes. And I'm not Harad.

I'm not sure you get it (and there's a distinct possibility you don't care). Saruman looks directly at the camera and talks to us; in this way PJ's deliberately added a modernist touch, referencing his own camera as Palantir... and this is out of all keeping with Tolkien's traditionalist values. The book wastes no time referencing itself as a book -- but guess what? every other piece of literature written in the last fifty years does! In many ways it matters more than plot or dialogue changes. It's a Tolkien or anti-Tolkien distinction.

Mearas · Dec 30, 2001

Re: Re: Saruman's status

<<Saruman was deceived! Tolkien portrays Saruman only for himself, thinking that he would use Sauron as a stepping stone for his own purposes. Saruman didn't realize that he was really doing what the Dark Lord wanted. But he was in it for himself. That is made clear in the first book.>>

I agree!

[...]

<<The movie makes Saruman as being in direct league with Sauron, his crony, you might say. [...]Folks watching the movie now will think that Saruman is getting the ring for his master Sauron. False, false, false.>>

OK, the nature of your gripe becomes clearer.

I didn't (well, don't) remember that in the movie Saruman had asked Gandalf to join with Sauron rather than Saruman. When I get to see it again, I will pay more attention here.

Remember, though, that even in the book, Saruman is acting the part of a crony (e.g. checking in via the palantir), presumably thinking that such behavior has earned and sustains Sauron's trust.

ReadWryt · Dec 30, 2001

Beren,

While I'm certain that, either by vanity or other presumption, you felt compelled to assume that my post clearly directed to Harad was meant for you, I feel the need to let you know as tactfully as possible that it's not really all about you.

I'm still waiting for Harad to respond to the question I posted...

What change in the movies ticks you off the most?

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