What change in the movies ticks you off the most?

Actually...

Sheakespeare addresses communism in his works. That is because he is a genius and the best example in the world's history that aliens exist. Tolkien's genius is not on par with Shakespeare's, however, I don't think it is impossible for Tolkien to have looked at the world and realized what was coming. The Communist Manifesto had existed for many years by that time, for example. Intellectuals do this sort of thing all the time. Sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right.

Also, the Shire isn't actually England. It is based on England and "the Scouring of the Shire" is a manifestation of Tolkien's fears for England.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

P.S. Yeah, Athens had slaves and it makes me bitter that they did! However, that model is the greatest hope for human Utopia.

thanx grond ..

and i had not the shire in mind but the west (or valinor)

and about shakespeare, he is undeniebly one of englands great geniuses. unquestionably so...however i think he was more of an dissident than the cultural prophet that you think.. in his work i read a tenacious critic of the british society...Wonder why the british ignore that fact all too often...

But , despite my scepcis , i am thankfull of the great drama the island has produced. sort of an love -hate relationship....

now ...what was this thread about again??????

oh and joseph if you're from canada shouldn't i speak french then?(thx 4 the quick reply btw)

No problem.

I think Shakespeare transcends any labels that simple. The thing about Shakespeare is you can go almost any way you want with the work because he has considered it. He's that brilliant. It's some kind of freaky brilliant. One of England's best playwrights? The best hands down, the best hands down of the world.

You can speak in French or in English, they are both our national languages and I'm obviously fluent in English and I was fluent in French, but I'm probably a little rusty now. )

Sincerely,
The Joseph

AHEM.

"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches; but its main theme was settled from the outset by the inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and 'The Hobbit'. The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past' is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster...The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion......Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of thosee who like allegory or topical reverence. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so....I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
It has been supposed by some that "The Scouring of the Shire" reflects the situation in England at the time when I was finishing my tale. It does not. It is an essential part of the plot, foreseen from the outset, though in the event modified by the character of Saruman as developed in the story without, need I say, any allegorical significance or contemporary political reference whatsoever." Etc, etc, etc. It's as if he cannot say enough to make himself clear.

Aside from that in his foreward, the dedication ends:
"To them, and to all who have been pleased by this book, especially those Across the Water, for whom it is specially intended, I dedicate this edition."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, 1964
"Le Maître a parlé."

AHHHHH!

Do you think we are all so stupid that we haven't read the forward of the book????????? Obviously we have moved beyond that, as a few people have mentioned in their posts. You make me choke on my own rage! I said the allegory was subconscious, as it so often is in literature!!!! And even if you assume the main points were written before the war, they were re-written after or during the war! As Tolkien says, the novel, after the initial draft had to be "largely re-written".

Sincerely,
The Joseph

You speak, Joe, as if you have indeed not read the forward.
Let it go, man.
Anger management is a great tool. I have used it myself.
Jesus, how many times does the man have to say that he meant nothing. Not before, not after, not any time.
Subconscious? The man planned enough for 150 friggin' Army maneuvers. He knew what the hell he was writing. A story. About a long freakin' time ago.
Choking on your own rage? Get over yourself! My sides are splitting!

I admit, ashamedly, that your posts are completely enjoyable. I have gotten many a chuckle from them. Especially tonight.
Keep up the good work, Joe.

By the way,
are you high?
No, really. You can tell me. It's cool. Whatever.

high on tolkien maybe.........yes but you thought you were on to something too???????

nothing wrong with having an opnion as long as you have thought about it and when you keep quoting prologues, i have only one advice for you... don't ...
plaese read my posts and joseph it'll become claer 2 you that we've passed that hurdle some time ago......

apologies for the bad typing joe....that last post was written too hastely and should be read in favour of you....

Just to pop in:

If you want an example of a Utopic socialist AND democratic system you just have to watch star Trek. The only capitalist there are the Ferengi. There was even an episode if which an old capitalsit financier is brought back to life after 300 years of cryo-sleep only to be told that monetary gain is useless in the 24th century...

Just my two cents

I think it would be wise if everyone would read a few books by Ayn Rand. Her Virtue of Selfishness is a classic and her philosophy explains why capitalism is the only vehicle to a truly happy and equitible society. Set goals and celebrate your life when they are accomplished.

"Here (in Mordor) rules the personification of satanic might Sauron (read perhaps in the same partial fashion [as other identifications Ohlmarks has made]Stalin)"

There is no `perhaps' about it. I utterly repudiate any such `reading', which angers me. The situation was concieved long before the Russian revolution. Such allegory is entirely foreign to my thought. The placing of Mordor in the east was due to simple narative and geographical neccessity, within my `mythology'. The original stronghold of Evil was (as traditionally) in the North; but as that had been destroyed, and was indeed under the sea, there had to be a new stronghold, far removed from the Valar, the Elves and the Sea-power of Numenor.

Click to expand...

Letter #229 from the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, dated 23 February 1961 (One year to the day before my birth *blink blink*)

I've read Rand (The Fountainhead, Anthem...)

and like most people, got past her. She's pretty sophomoric, good only for pseudointellectual late-night college dorm bull sessions.

I'm far from a communist (life-long Republican) but people who take her philosophy seriously and live their lives according to its tenets are scum, plain and simple---people who would be right at home with buddies like Hitler and all the other megalomaniac dirtbags that have infested history.

***Deleted by ReadWryt***

I'm sorry---I'll readily admit I'm combative, but usually not abusive. But in this case it's warranted. Tolkien would reject your perverse outlook on life totally and utterly, as any person with decent values and ethics would.

Ayn Rand, for heaven's sake. The only decent thing that selfish hag ever did was die. Disgusting.

what can i say , i am aghast

Alas, I have a Seiko and a Chevy Pickup truck. Other than saying that, I won't respond to your own stupid and short-sighted statements.

BTW, I'm sure Christopher Tolkien agrees with you concerning his father. You can reach him at his villa in the South of France.

Joe,
Do you not get the fact that the author himself, in the forward to the book in question, very clearly and firmly explained that the book was an adventure created in his head, or heart? It was not an allegorical take on World Wars, or Hitler, or Stalin....at least NOT TO THE AUTHOR. I think it is great that you find so many ways to explore the trilogy and make connections in your mind. Yet I sense from your posts that you actually believe, unequivocably, that you are correct about your analysis. Do you not, in any way, find that totally insulting to Tolkein, that you have decided you know what he meant and what he was getting at? This may not be what you think you're saying, but this is what I am hearing ( or reading, as the case may be).

Hey, I'll debate like anyone about the allegorical, symbolic meaning and imagery in any work of art, or social or political or cultural event. Yet I stop far short from giving my meaning and definition to someone else's reality.
In one of my English classes at university years ago, we discussed the habit of white middle-class authors to take the voices of dis-enfranchised people of colour in their works. This was called appropriation - taking someone's identity, or voice. I feel at times that you rob Tolkein of his voice on a forum dedicated to the genius of the man.

There was a writer named J.R.R. Tolkein, and he created a world called Middle Earth and creatures like hobbits and orcs and Ents. And he wrote wonderful tales. Hell, he even created a language ( at least one) called Quenya, or high elven. And you know what? Those accomplishments are enough for me, without adding his name to the list of subconscious socio-political historical commentators of the twentieth century.



By the way jamesy, there is a thread called the guild of politics somewhere in the Prancing Pony where people can discuss political issues.

And I am not sure whether choking on a pretzel and/or spelling words wrong is more pathetic than being really drunk on vodka and on an internet forum typing the word 'ha' over and over. It is truly a toss - up
And I am not an American, by the way.

Damn teachers.

I just escaped from a teacher like you...thank goodness I made it out of high school and into University. Get this, Daisy, Postmodernism sucks so don't hoist its pseudo-relativism on me. Everyone's opinion is justified as long as you go on and on and on about how you could be wrong. Well, of course, I could be wrong and, of course, this is my opinion. It's coming out of my mouth isn't it?

I'm not disrespecting Tolkien at all. I'm simply acknowledging to separate levels of interpretation. What the author says doesn't have anything to do with his subconscious! Well, it does but they don't always agree is the point I'm making.

Furthermore, when I recommend Tolkien's work I leave all this junk out and tell them it is a grand faerie story. I'm betting Tolkien realized what his work contained and--maybe he was even disgusted with it--he didn't want that to overshadow the greater elements of the story. Avoiding allegory is almost impossible, some would say impossible.

If you are hearing that I am saying I am the be all and end all of the Tolkien world, then you are a fool. There is a difference between asserting your opinions confidently and claiming them to be facts. Opinion: Through analyzing yours posts I have concluded that you are a feminist who considers ALL passion and strong opinions to be asserting an archaic code that--and you would thank god for this no doubt--the sisterhood has managed to beat back.

Sincerely,
The Joseph

P.S. I don't think the Americans really need you defending them. Nor should you be defending them.

pppphhh , had 2 read that twice daisy , and i must agree with joe : your kind of reasoning made me drop out and live on the beach ......

Joe,

I will probably never understand your need to be personally insulting to people you have never met. It is not usually something I do, nor do I do it well when I try. I have been told over the years that I am a good teacher , but I have also been called a b--ch and to f-off from sixteen year old gang members close to tears so who knows? . I am a special ed. teacher so I try to find ways to help kids get through, you know? I am sorry if the teachers you experienced, or some of them anyway, made you have this attitude towards teachers, even ones you do not know.

I did not teach that class on appropriation. I was a student at the time. It definitely made me think, but who knows?

I don't know whether to be flattered of wierded out that you analyse my posts and find me a feminist who something something beat back something. Again, you reach much too deep. I didn't quite get that part.

I will continue to post me responses to your posts and be unafraid of your nasty replies. Whatever the reason you are so, I don't know, unhappy? I am sorry. I hope it gets better whatever it is.

Sometimes I am a fool. I bang into doors, drop pieces of pizza on my lap, sit on my cat. I cry at stupid long distance commercials and love ABBA. But people seem to love me more for it. So I forgive you.

Peace.
daisy

and telperion, bring me back some seashells.

Re: Damn teachers.

Originally posted by TheJospeh
...I'm not disrespecting Tolkien at all. I'm simply acknowledging to separate levels of interpretation. 1) What the author says doesn't have anything to do with his subconscious! Well, it does but they don't always agree is the point I'm making.

2)....I'm betting Tolkien realized what his work contained and--maybe he was even disgusted with it... Avoiding allegory is almost impossible, some would say impossible.

3)...then you are a fool. 4)Opinion: Through analyzing yours posts I have concluded that you are a feminist who considers ALL passion and strong opinions to be asserting an archaic code that--and you would thank god for this no doubt--the sisterhood has managed to beat back.

5)P.S. I don't think the Americans really need you defending them. Nor should you be defending them.

Click to expand...

Gosh, where does one begin? 1) and 2) prove you to be a mind reader and apparently are claiming to know more of the subconcious mind of the author than the author himself; 3) and 4) insulting a really nice lady who makes a living improving life for kids who would otherwise likely be abandoned by society and 5) insulting a large percentage of the board who are American by your blatant anti-American sentiment. I won't respond, I will simply do what ReadWryt has advised us to do............consider your post reported to the moderator for further action. Have a nice day!