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What change in the movies ticks you off the most?

Grond- first off, just after writing my long post I saw your post in the 'movie poll' thread, and saw that you have many good things to say about the movie as well as criticisms. I didn't come back and edit my post because I think a lot of my points still apply to posters on this thread, if not so much to you. I especially feel that Merry and Pippin in the movie were very closely related to their characters in the book.
Regarding unneccessary departures from the book, here's my take. I think that many of the departures were different from what was written in the book, but were in the spirit of the book. Was it Arwen who rescued Frodo in the book? No. From what Tolkien has written about Arwen, was it in her character to do these sorts of things? Yes- in the narrative Arwen is often compared to Luthien, in Letters Tolkien writes that Arwen is very like Luthien in character. Arwen is not all that stay at home- several times in the Third Age she travels between Lorien and Rivendell. In the books Elrond sends out several riders to find Frodo & co. In the books it is Glorfindel who finds the Hobbits. By having a different Rivendell Elf in the movie PJ is departing from the books, but he is not departing from the spirit of the books (an opinion call on my part). By having that Elf be Arwen he is also departing from the books, but staying within the spirit. The character of Luthien was not remarkable for the fact that she stayed in Doriath most of her life, her character was remarkable because of her efforts in recovering the Silmaril from Morgoth. If Tolkien says that Arwen had a similar character, then why not have her leave Rivendell at least once in the movie before her wedding?
I wonder very much what effect the Tolkien Estate's lack of support had on PJ's decision making in the movie. Remember, PJ is making what will doubtlessly be the crowning achievement of his career an homage to Tolkien. At the same time, the Tolkien Estate would not even let PJ place Tolkien's name in the movie. From all accounts that I've heard, this decision took place before a script was written, so it couldn't have been in response to departures from the book. The Tolkien Estate snubbed PJ and belittled his ability as director/writer/producer by not allowing him to put Tolkien's name in the movie. It would not surprise me at all if PJ made some of his departures as a childish response to the TE's snubbing. What I find altogether wonderful is that many of the departures from the narrative reflect what Tolkien actually wrote about Middle-Earth. Tolkien said that Arwen shared the character of the pre-eminent adventuring Elf-maiden in all the history of Middle-Earth. PJ decided to explore the adventure-some side of Arwen's character. Tolkien wrote that the Dunedain of Cardolan and Arthedain were defeated at Weathertop in TA 1409, and that the Prince of the Dunedain of Cardolan was subsequently slain on the Barrow-Downs (Tyrn Gorthad) and burried in the same mound as the one which the Ringbearer was later trapped in. In the books the Hobbits get their swords from this mound, in the movie the Hobbits get their swords from a Dunedain fortress that was destroyed in the same military engagement. Maybe PJ didn't even realize this, but I tend to think of it as subtle film-making rather than blind luck.
Again I reiterate that changes from the text are not automatically bad (I guess that's why nobody's ever labeled me a purist). In a re-telling of the Lord of the Rings PJ is free to explore alternatives to what the author wrote in the book, especially since he was not allowed to use that author's name in the movie. I actually enjoyed most of the stuff that people complain about. I liked Elrond's stern-ness, he was an ancient Elf that had seen all of the plans of the Free-Peoples come to nothing. Arwen's expanded role reminds me that she had the character of Luthien (when I miss Glorfindel I can always read the books). The perceived coldness of Galadriel helps me understand why Eomer and Boromir were so afraid of the Wood and openly critical of the lady within. None of this stuff was explicitly written in the books, but from what Tolkien did write this material was certainly in the spirit of the books. And, as I've said before, the differences from the narrative have added to my LotR experience, where a direct word-for-word translation would not have.
 
Alright, i see what you mean. I have to agree that I didn't really like Elrond's charcter as well. They had way to little of Elrond in the movie. I think that might be why we don't like him. We only see the parts where he is grumpy. If the DVD has as much more Rivendale as I've heard, we might get a different picture of Elrond. As for Merry and Pippin, when you're moving around from one battle to the next every minute of the movie, you need some comic relief. Same with when Aragorn said "Let's go hunt some orc" and Gimli replied with a gruff "Yeah!" was to get some laughter from the crowd just after borimir dies and sam almost drowns. We can't say Elrond is always grumpy until we see the DVD.
 
Aragil, I don't want to beat a dead horse but....

In order for your Luthien/Arwen analogy to work, one must assume that Arwen's driving force behind her searching for the party is her concern for Aragorn and not that she was sent as a scout by Elrond. I cannot recall a single instance in all of Tolkien lore where a female Elf, or Woman for that matter, does anything heroic or dangerous for herself or for the good of all or because she is directed to by her Lord. Tolkien's female characters did what the did for love of their chosen partner. Luthien for Beren. Elwing for Earendil. Eowyn for Aragorn and Theoden. In order for Arwen to work at the Fords as a composite character, replacing Glorfindel, a new characterization must be developed to accomodate the scene. She cannot be a composite character because that does not fit the female characters that Tolkien has created in all of his Middle-earth mythologies.

And now we get to the very crux of why PJ did what he did. It wasn't for any other reason than to bring an aura of political correctness to the movie. He picked a strong female lead and had to give her a strong female role. Tolkien didn't write a strong female lead until the RotK, so PJ was left with no choice but to create one. It is time that everyone admits that. It wasn't in keeping in the spirit of Tolkien. You seek to justify what is not there. It made a great movie. It will make for great movies to come, but puuleeze don't try to sell me that PJ was doing it in the spirit of Tokien. It just ain't so.
 
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Wrong. It was in the "spirit of Tolkien." It may not have been in the spirit of the first 2 books of LOTR ("Books" 1-4) because Tolkien neglected to put a strong female character in those. Tolkien did put a strong female character in "book" 5.
PJ's invention of an expanded Arwen is in the "spirit" of JRRTs Luthien or even Aradhel in the Sil. That's what the "spirit of JRRT" means. Its not SO DIFFICULT to understand. Further its just as much good movie-making as it is "politically correct." Glorfindel could not be expanded into a major character because he was a ill-fitting character in the book. Arwen was a master stroke of PJ. He rescued a neglected character in the book and made her into a well-fitting Tolkien-esque movie character.

As far as Elrond, lets try again: GET OVER THE JOLLY OLD ELF some people expect. In the movie not only does he heal Frodo, but he is very friendly toward all the hobbits. When Aragorn offers "his sword" to Frodo defense at the CoE, Elrond and Gandalf exchange a glance of approval. For a minor character, thats about as much "rounding" as you can expect in a 3-hour movie of 500+ page book.
 
okay, hello, but Shelob was no slouch boys!
And Eonwe was very strong mentally as was Galadriel - sheesh what is your definition of strong you Conan the barbarian fans?
 
I thought you were against Arwen? If JRRT has strong women characters--and he did--(Shelob?...ok) then the fact that there are none in books 1-4 (FOTR & TTT) is a bit of an downside to filming them. So hence the composite character Arwen, in the spirit of JRRT.
 
If you can show me one example in any of Tolkien's works where a female character takes on a masculine heroic role that isn't to protect her man, to find her man, to help her man or to impress her man, then I will concede that your composite Arwen might be in the spirit of JRRT. She ain't there. All of his female characters did heroic things for their men.

Before I'm stoned by all the woman of the forum. I am not endorsing the author's characterization of women, simply stating a fact.
 
Harad - what do you mean by strong?
Grond is talking about women fulfilling traditional masculine roles i.e. sword wielding butt kicking - so his point is based on this view - are you using the same definiton of 'strong'? I am not sure...therefore my slightly playful Shelob for Mayor assertion...
 
I dont know if what you say is true. But even if it is, Arwen was helping her man and herself by helping Frodo. Directly since Aragorn was trying to save Frodo and indirectly since if the Quest succeeded, they would get married and live happily ever after (or until they died...which is what it normally means.)
 
A very weak link to me but one that I will have to ponder. I would have thought her aid was more directed to Frodo and the characters she represents (all of them) are male. Also, her character would have been sent out by Elrond (with other scouts), so portraying her prime motivation as Aragorn is weak... but it is food for thought and I will not reject it until I have thought on it.
 
Ponder away. Arwen knew that Aragorn was the sole protector of the Hobbits and that the party was being hunted by the Nine. Shirley you can understand why her love of Aragorn would be a motivating influence in her taking part in the search and rescue?
 
I didn't see Shirley in the movie but I will continue to ponder your scenario as it has the potential to explain the unexplainable.
 
If it were true that Tolkien's sincere belief was that women, both human or elf, can only be motivated by romantic love, and can neither be selfish or altruistic, it would cause me no loss of sleep for PJ to change that. But thankfully Tolkien's writings are by no means as one dimensional as your interpretation of it.

Lets look at Eowyn, since you cite her. Firstly, its downright bizarre that you describe Theoden as her chosen life partner; especially in the same breath as naming Aragorn. Her motivation is complex: she wishes to fight evil, she wishes to win renown for herself, she wishes to restore pride in the House of Eorl, she wishes for excitement, she wishes for a glorious death; and she wishes to fight along side Theoden. It is not at all out of concern for love of her chosen partner.

Let also consider Galadriel for a minute. Now she is not really an example of individual heroism, but on the other hand she undertook the journey from the West into Middle Earth in the First Age. That was a journey taken in defiance of the Valar, into peril and war against Morgoth. So I hope you will concede that it was dangerous, and so does at least indicate that she was prepared to take risks. So what were her motivations? Well could she possibly be motivated by love for her chosen life partner, Celeborn, who she had even met yet? I don't think so. No, the Sil states she
yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.

Your use of Elwing as an example is poor. Elwing is driven by fear and need initially. Twice she is assailed by the sons of Feanor, and escapes. Initially she escapes from Doriath, and at this point she has not met Earendil. Afterwards she escapes from the Mouths of Sirion, with the Silmaril because she is turned into a bird. She acts her not to save Earendil but to save the Silmaril, and to save her own life. She does act out of love once: she sets foot in Aman along side Earendil, thus breaking the ban, in order that they should share the same fate. But she has also shown she is capable of a wider set of motivations than you ascribe to her.

Returning to Eowyn was she unique? I remind you of Haleth:
Haldad had twin children: Haleth his daughter; and Haldar his son; and both were valiant in the defense, for Haleth was a woman of great heart and strength.
and
Haleth remained their chief while her day lasted, but she did not wed...
and
Or I could give you Morwen, who went into the wild alone to seek for Turin, her son.

I think this is sufficient evidence to destroy the notion that women, whether elven or human, only act bravely in defense of their beloved.

Please concede! The Haleth example is beyond question.
 
Yeeouch! Very well researched VofK. It's always nice to see that Tolkien wasn't as sexist as he is sometimes portrayed. I always remember that Luthien was modelled after his own wife Edith, and in his story Tolkien portrayed Luthien to be in many ways superior to his own alter-ego of Beren. Yay for JRRT!
 
Interesting research, VofK, but that doesn't change a thing for me. Here's where Grond and I differ in opinion....I couldn't care less what research is drummed up concerning females in LoTR, as far as I'm concerned, it has no bearing on whether PJ was justified in using Arwen the way he did. There are many things PJ could have made Aragorn and Gandalf, and Legolas do that would have been in the spirit of Tolkien (things that would reflect the might of the kings of Numenor, or the Elven Lords of old, or the Valar)....Who cares???

Do you want a good representation of the book, or characters doing things every which way but loose because they are in the "spirit" of LoTR? I'm sorry, but I can't accept this argument that Arwen is justified in what she is doing because of her ancestors and that she COULD have done it....How absolutely lame is that?? Tolkien wrote his characters a certain way, and a movie that claims to be so true to the book (and promised that for the fans) should be held to that standard.

So I guess, all you PJ fans, that if PJ combines things Eomer and Theoden are doing with Eowyn's character it is okay, as long as it is in the spirit of the warriors of Rohan? If the Huorns participate in taking down Orthanc, it is okay? Give me a break!
When do the changes "in the spirit of Tolkien" stop? Are you going to keep justifying every wayward change PJ does by this "spirit" argument?

With all the changes PJ has made (and seems to continue to make), ask yourself this: When does it stop being JRR's LoTR? C'mon people, you could change the entire mood of the movie with the "spirit of Tolkien"? At what point are you going to say "enough"?
 
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As you know Thorin, I've already posted my view on when they to say 'enough'. But you haven't. You've accepted some changes - e.g. Merry and Pippin with the fireworks but are trenchantly opposed to others. Come on put your cards on the table: why are some changes OK and other not to you.

If you can't put it into some clearly defined terms I will be greatly disappointed, but hardly surprised. I think this all comes down to your personal likes and dislikes, but I am willing to be proven wrong.
 
Understand first that I didn't say that I liked the changes of M&P and sometimes Gandalf, just that I could tolerate them....I wish that those little changes would not have been in there.

The little changes were fabrications that did not exist within the book but were added for cinematic reasons (i.e. comic relief, better association between characters and audience). These little additions were also in the JRR-proven characters of M&P and could be overlooked. I do not have a hard time with CREATED scenes (with the exception of Boromir fingering the ring on Caradhras), but with extremely ALTERED existing scenes....I had a problem with Orthanc and Bree in that regard as well, not just the Fords...Hence the reason why Boromir and the hobbits play fighting in Eregion, and Merry and Pippin with the fireworks did not irk me, but the other incidents did.

Arwen's revamped role (although added for cinematic purposes as well, and in that I believe is the REAL reason for it, not the "spirit" of Luthien or Tolkien or whomever) was not in character (and to say that because Luthien was her ancestor and did certain adventurous things in no way justifies the character that Tolkien created doing the things she did)...sorry, guys, but it is a weak argument.

As I've said before, VK, I would have had no problems with PJ CREATING scenes with more Arwen in them within her character that JRR created, to give her more screen time and familiarize her with the audience. However, not only was her role out of character, but it totally altered an EXISTING scene that NEVER INCLUDED HER. Also, the fact that she stole the thunder from three other characters as well....

And where pray tell, did you lay out when the changes were "enough" for you? I seemed to have missed that post.
 
Thorin I explained how I judge whether changes in the movie are OK Here

I have problems with your explanation. Firstly you say PJ can CREATE scenes for Arwen, but berate him for having her do things out of character. How can you say what is in or out of character for Arwen? She has no character development at all. There is no way to tell what is out character.

I think PJ is on record as saying every scene is changed in some way or another. I can't see how you decide what is too much and what is tolerable. As a film-maker, that is the decision that PJ would have to make. When you read interviews with PJ and the writers, you get a sense they went through agonies try to adapt the book and get it work. My problem with your position is that you resent even small changes for cinematic reasons, and you wish they weren't there. There are two ways of avoiding making changes for cinematic reasons: either make a bad film, or don't make one at all.

I'm glad they made the film.
 
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