What Happened to Maglor?

ZehnWaters said:

Nope. The full prophecy is as follows:

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.

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This Prophecy was actually one of the most striking moments in The Silmarillion when I first read it. No wonder Námo is my favourite Vala.

I suppose sometimes I just need a refresher of what he actually said to get my head round this...it's an entire and lengthy 2 paragraphs, for Eru's sake!

But when he says "shadows of regret" I oft think of Galadriel:

"I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

Could it be, by any chance?

Vilisse said:

This Prophecy was actually one of the most striking moments in The Silmarillion when I first read it. No wonder Námo is my favourite Vala.

I suppose sometimes I just need a refresher of what he actually said to get my head round this...it's an entire and lengthy 2 paragraphs, for Eru's sake!

But when he says "shadows of regret" I oft think of Galadriel:

"I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

Could it be, by any chance?

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More than likely. She likely regretted some of her actions or, at least, her attitude since it didn't seem like she'd done much to feel sorry about. The prophecy is well-worded and very bold, I agree.

ZehnWaters said:

The prophecy is well-worded and very bold, I agree.

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Indeed - yet, as concealed as his ways oft are - his words are oft vague also.

Still, I wonder what the original words of the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have been...is there any reference that could be found? Thanks!

Vilisse said:

Still, I wonder what the original words of the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have been...is there any reference that could be found? Thanks!

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This is all I've got:

ZehnWaters said:

This is all I've got:

Dagor Dagorath

The Dagor Dagorath (S. Battle of all Battles), also known as the Second Prophecy of Mandos or simply the Last Battle, is an apocalyptic event prophesied by Mandos...

tolkiengateway.net

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I see. Hannon-le!

ZehnWaters said:

Nope. The full prophecy is as follows:

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.

I suppose one COULD argue it's a curse placed on ALL of the Noldor but the severity of the crime lay more heavily on the House of Fëanor so I just kind of assumed they'd be the ones it applied to most. Also we know that Finrod got reembodied.

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Sorry to reopen an old discussion and apologies for a slight departure from the main topic.... but how far does this curse of apply to the line of Feanor? More specifically, does it mean that Celebrimor, son of Curufin, is languishing in Mandos along with his father? It seems unnecessarily cruel to make the son pay to the same degree for sins committed by his father. Thoughts?

Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying? I guess I've just always been a little confused on how the curse is supposed to apply to all the Noldor exiles, since there were many and their roles in the entire saga varied greatly! How was forgiveness applied after the war was over?

Admittedly, I've always loved forgiveness as a virtue in life as well as a theme in literature, so I personally find the whole "curse" stuff very sad. I feel like if it had to apply to anyone as a price of justice, it should just have been on Feanor.

Sons of the Woodland King said:

Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying?

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I would think so.

Sons of the Woodland King said:

Sorry to reopen an old discussion and apologies for a slight departure from the main topic.... but how far does this curse of apply to the line of Feanor? More specifically, does it mean that Celebrimor, son of Curufin, is languishing in Mandos along with his father? It seems unnecessarily cruel to make the son pay to the same degree for sins committed by his father. Thoughts?

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I actually asked about this a bit back. I believe his abandonment of his father and his father's family purged him from that sin. Making the Rings of Power however....

Sons of the Woodland King said:

Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying? I guess I've just always been a little confused on how the curse is supposed to apply to all the Noldor exiles, since there were many and their roles in the entire saga varied greatly! How was forgiveness applied after the war was over?

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I'd imagine it depended on the person. Glorfindel seems to have obtained forgiveness and he was part of Fingolfin's house who fought in the first kinslaying.

Sons of the Woodland King said:

Admittedly, I've always loved forgiveness as a virtue in life as well as a theme in literature, so I personally find the whole "curse" stuff very sad. I feel like if it had to apply to anyone as a price of justice, it should just have been on Feanor.

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Anyone who made the Oath seems to have been the only ones unable to obtain forgiveness as it went beyond the pale. Even then we see Maglor and Maedhros obtaining elements of forgiveness when Eonwë refused to let them be killed (even though they had just killed guards).

ZehnWaters said:

I'd imagine it depended on the person. Glorfindel seems to have obtained forgiveness and he was part of Fingolfin's house who fought in the first kinslaying.

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Would it not make more sense that Glorfindel would be of the House of Finarfin, due to his golden hair?

ZehnWaters said:

Anyone who made the Oath seems to have been the only ones unable to obtain forgiveness as it went beyond the pale.

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So essentially those of the House of Fingolfin and House of Finrod would have been forgiven and re-embodied earlier than some of the Sons of Féanor?

He was of his own house, no?

The Golden Flower...

Estë said:

Would it not make more sense that Glorfindel would be of the House of Finarfin, due to his golden hair?

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A vassal, servant, follower, not a descendant. And he was one of Turgon's people so...No? I don't think so. He was of the PEOPLE of Fingolfin.

Estë said:

So essentially those of the House of Fingolfin and House of Finrod would have been forgiven and re-embodied earlier than some of the Sons of Féanor?

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The people of Fingolfin and the people of Finarfin (though Finarfin himself didn't come) would obtain forgiveness depending on their own personal actions, I'd imagine. Those of the people of Fëanor would likely not obtain forgiveness anytime soon as they followed their leaders into the most wicked of acts. Those who made the Oath (Fëanor and his sons) would obtain no forgiveness until, perhaps, the end of the world.

Elbereth Vala Varda said:

He was of his own house, no?

The Golden Flower...

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Yes. He was a vassal of King Turgon.

Glorfindel is said [Last Writings] to have joined in the Rebellion due to kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him. Idril was also golden-haired, although whatever "kinship" Glorfindel had with Turgon is not yet revealed, and may never be.

🐾

Elthir said:

Glorfindel is said [Last Writings] to have joined in the Rebellion due to kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him. Idril was also golden-haired, although whatever "kinship" Glorfindel had with Turgon is not yet revealed, and may never be.

🐾

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Was he a Noldo, then? Or a Vanya?

ZehnWaters said:

Was he a Noldo, then? Or a Vanya?

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He began as a Noldo in The Book of Lost Tales, and is said to be a Noldo in Last Writings, wherein it is also said that he had no part in the Kinslaying of Swanhaven.

🥚

Elthir said:

He began as a Noldo in The Book of Lost Tales, and is said to be a Noldo in Last Writings, wherein it is also said that he had no part in the Kinslaying of Swanhaven.

🥚

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Just one who may have had Vanya ancestry. A'ight.

While I'm always putting Tolkien-published text on the top shelf, I'm not sure we need to push Tolkien that hard with respect to the statement in Appendix F [that the Eldar had dark locks save in the golden house of Finarfin]. The Vanyar aside here [who are Eldar in any case], there are equally author-published Eldarin exceptions to this "dark" locks statement.

That said, I do take the Appendix description to be a general guide, and a rather sweeping one, and I myself employ it to imagine undescribed hair colours.

ZehnWaters said:

Yes. He was a vassal of King Turgon.

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Ah - that then makes sense.

Hannon-le.

grendel said:

The last we see of him, at least in the Silmarillion, he has gained possession of one of the Silmarils, which burned his hand (because at this point he's a really bad fellow) so he threw it into the ocean.

"I immediately regret my decision!!"

And thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves.

In theory, he could do this forever, or at least until the end of Arda, since he is one of the Firstborn. I have a feeling, though that his soul (fea?) would have faded away to nothing as he pined for the Silmaril.
OR, he would have been taken out by the wreck of Numenor later on, assuming he stayed in the same general area (which at that time was Beleriand, yes?)

This is all just speculation; if anyone has information from the ancillary writing, I would be happy to hear about it.

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Thank you for this question, I had never thought deeply about it before. I see the two traditions offered here, that either he cast himself into the sea along with, or after casting the silmaril, and that after casting aside the silmaril he wandered on the shores forever.

I prefer the second version, there is something poetically satisfying about the image of Maglor wandering the shores forever, and I agree with the person who suggested he would have gradually faded over time while doing this.

I recall two pieces of lore that deepen the image for me - one is that Maglor was the finest musician among all the elves, and the other is that the sounds of the ocean (or the sound of water generally) captures most closely the sound of the original creation music that the Ainu sung, bringing Arda into existence. I imagine Maglor's beautiful music sharpened by the deep sorrow and lament of his experience merging into the sounds of the ocean as he slowly faded over the long years. I can perhaps imagine that the sounds of the ocean we now here carry Maglor's sorrowful lament in union with the echoes of the original world-creation music, and we can hear the merger of these two finest, most moving musical sounds at the ocean even to this day. With sorrow only being possible in the fullness of love and loss, the expansive depth of love and loss that is the experience of Arda is heard in the transportive sounds of the ocena waves...

Nienna Núri said:

Thank you for this question, I had never thought deeply about it before. I see the two traditions offered here, that either he cast himself into the sea along with, or after casting the silmaril, and that after casting aside the silmaril he wandered on the shores forever.

I prefer the second version, there is something poetically satisfying about the image of Maglor wandering the shores forever,

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He was the least wicked of his siblings so...it makes more sense. Though, I suppose it depends on whether one considers death "worse" at this point.

That is the truth. I don't know about you, but I view the Doom of Mandos as worse than a peaceful or valiant death.

(In Middle-Earth of course)