What if Ar-Pharazon seized the One Ring?

Greenwood · May 27, 2005

Ingwë said:
He/She is correct but the situation with the One ring is different. No one can control the Ring because it was made by Sauron himself. But someone can overthow Sauron. Sauron can be destroyed though he is a Maia. No mortal, no elf can rule the One Ring but they can use it! But the Ring will not 'listen' his owner bacause that owner will not be his master. The Ring has only one master - Sauron. But if someone defeat Sauron he will be the Dark lord. Not Dark lord because Sauron will be alive while the Ring is still undestroyed. The one who would overthrow Sauron will be a toy in the hands of Sauron - The One Ring. He can use it but he cannot command it.

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, however, no mortal (and Ar-Pharazon was certainly a mortal) can destroy Sauron using the Ring. According to LOTR one of the Wise could use the Ring to get rid of Sauron, but only at the cost of essentially becoming a new Sauron themselves. As long as Sauron had the Ring Ar-Pharazon could not really defeat him. Even if Sauron were to give Ar-Pharazon the Ring, it would only be for as long as it took to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and then Sauron would just tell him to give it back. Of course, according to the story, Sauron didn't even have to do that. He corrupted Ar-Pharazon just by his influence.

Thorondor_ · May 27, 2005

If what you say is true, and it does make sense, what would be your explanation of Gandalf words, that Sauron would fear a numenorean king (Aragorn) taking hold of the one ring? Why would he be afraid? Tho Tolkien does contradict himself at times.

Ingwë · May 28, 2005

Greenwood,

I tried to say that Ar-Pharazon can overthow Sauron but Sauron will endure while the One Ring exists. Therefore Sauron will be the Dark lord in Ar-Pharazon's body. I mean Sauron himself will rule in Ar's body if Sauron is overthown, Because Ar-Pharazon cannot control the Ring. The Ring will control the Númenorean king.

Greenwood · May 28, 2005

Thorondor said:
If what you say is true, and it does make sense, what would be your explanation of Gandalf words, that Sauron would fear a numenorean king (Aragorn) taking hold of the one ring? Why would he be afraid? Tho Tolkien does contradict himself at times.

It has taken Sauron about 3,000 years to recover from his last brush with the survivors of Numenor. Now, when he thinks everything is going his way some pesky heir of Elendil appears to mess things up, possibly wearing his Ring or being aided by one of the Wise using the Ring? Of course Sauron would be worried. And as long as someone like Aragorn had the Ring, Sauron must worry that it could come into the hands of Gandalf or Elrond or Galadriel, etc.; someone with the inherent power to truly supplant him if they had the time to learn how to fully use the Ring.

Ingwë · May 29, 2005

I like this thoughts, Greenwood. But as I previously mentioned, I think that as mortal can use the Ring. What do you think about Frodo? He saw Galadriel's Ring? She said his sight became keener. He used the ring to become invisible, no all its powers but it use it.

Good debate, isn't it, Greenwood?

Aiglos · May 30, 2005

I don't think anyone but the Wise can contest the will of the Ring, and they are all mortally afraid of it...!!!!

This is a device of a Maia gone bad. Sauron put all of his might and malice into it. It is OF Sauron, a part of him. It cannot be controlled by another. It's destruction is HIS destruction. It is PART of Sauron.

Pharazon with the Ring is like Angmar with the Ring. Only Angmar didn't have anywhere near as powerful an army as Pharazon, at ANY point.

Ingwë · May 30, 2005

Aiglos, tell me why do you think so? As I previously mentioned the One Ring controls the other Rings, also the Nine Rings.

We must discuss if Ar-Pharazon may overthrow Sauron.
If Ar cannot do anything there is nothing to discuss
If he can, then we must say what would happen with the King
Then we must discuss what Sauron will do after his distruction, because he will survive while the Ring is there

That's enough.

Aiglos · May 30, 2005

No backup apart from my memory here. I'm too lazy to look through all the potential quote material! Apologies. Too tired.

But here's my ha'penny worth:

Ar Pharazon cannot destroy Sauron whether Ar has the ring or not. Sauron is a Maia. Even the armies of the Alliance were swept aside. Even the Elven High King who wielded me, and he wore one of The Three.....
Ar Pharazon with the One Ring for any length of time would be turned. I don't think he will become more powerful than any of "The Wise" including Sauron, but he will turn to the same dark ways, including eventually wasting away and becoming a wraith (this was said to be the ultimate fate of all mortals who would wield it, including Frodo - if he'd kept it). However, Sauron would eventually have to take back the One Ring from Ar by force. Until that point it is likely they would work to the same ends (as in fact they did, although Ar was blinded by greed and did not know it).
In other words, I don't think any mortal could stand the power of the Ring long enough to be able to become powerful in its use. Nor do I think any mortal would have the "skill" to use it as one of "The Wise" would.

I think if Pharazon, Aragorn, Elendil, Beren, Turin, Frodo or any mortal ever mentioned anywhere by Tolkien at any point, no matter how good-willed, strong and wise, took that Ring, it would waste them, stretching their lives until they were as thin as paste, and leaving nothing but a shadow....

(how's that for drama....!?)

Maerbenn · May 30, 2005

Aiglos said:
he [Gil-galad] wore one of the Three...

From the published Silmarillion; ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’:

... while he [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

Aiglos · May 31, 2005

Good point Maerbenn!!!!

But then, after the Alliance, all of the Three were worn again (albeit by different people in certain cases).

I wonder where the Three were kept during the years between the fall of Nogrod and the War of The Last Alliance...?

Ingwë · May 31, 2005

Aiglos said:
No backup apart from my memory here. I'm too lazy to look through all the potential quote material! Apologies. Too tired.
But here's my ha'penny worth:

Ar Pharazon cannot destroy Sauron whether Ar has the ring or not.

Sorry. I meant overthrow. I edited my post.

Btw what do you mean?

I wonder where the Three were kept during the years between the fall of Nogrod and the War of The Last Alliance...?

They were kept in Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Galadriel. Gil gave his Ring to Elrond and Cirdan gave his one to Gandalf wheh the Wizzard came in Me.

But let wi stop with the offtopic. Aiglos, why don't you try to find a thread about the Keepers? Then we can post there.

Aiglos · May 31, 2005

Overthrow?

He could certainly have done a good job....!

He had the army enough to flatten Sauron's forces for good.

I agree this could happen, with the Ring in Ar's possession. I still think Sauron would have defeated Ar or made him his servant in the end.

In fact, given that Sauron was immortal, he could have just waited till Pharazon died....

Ingwë · Jun 1, 2005

I think Ar may overthrow Sauron but the One Ring cannot be controled by anyone save the Dark lord. And Sauron's spirit will survive while the Ring is in Arda. The Sauron will control the King

Tar-Elendil13 · Jun 24, 2005

Ar-Pharazon getting the ring would be scary. I think there would be an assassination attempt.

Thorondor_ · Jun 24, 2005

Tar-Elendil13 said:
Ar-Pharazon getting the ring would be scary. I think there would be an assassination attempt.

What do you mean?

What if Ar-Pharazon seized the One Ring?

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