What of the other 🧙Istari?

Barliman Butterbur · Nov 18, 2004

Walter said:
David Day is usually not considered the most reliable of sources concerning Tolkien's writings...

Not considered reliable by whom, and why not?

Barley

Walter · Nov 18, 2004

Barliman Butterbur said:
Not considered reliable by whom, and why not?

Barley

You mean aside from the "slip" about the names of the Blue Wizards? Well, don't trust my judgement, after all I've never read anyone of Day's books...

But why not give it a try on your own? Do a careful cross-check of the part you have quoted with Tolkien's writings and see if Tolkien actually wrote everything that Day states about the Istari. That should provide you with the first flaws in Day's commentary...

I've seen other bits and pieces of Day quoted and I can't recall a single one that has not been flawed one way or the other.

Also you could check out the reader reviews on Amazon's and pay some attention to the less favourable reviews. See especially the comment of M. Martinez, one of the most diligent Tolkien readers around.

If that is not enough you could do some Googling or check out r.a.b.t. for references to David Day...

Barliman Butterbur · Nov 18, 2004

David Day: fast and loose with Tolkien

Well, I took your advice: googled around with it and came up with these:

•Steuard Jensen: " ... it is important to be aware that a considerable number of other details in those vivid descriptions were invented by Day himself with little or no justification in the texts..."

•"The author's worst failing, however, is his seeming lack of familiarity with Tolkien's works; this despite three earlier books based on them."

•"The format of this work makes it very much a coffee-table book; its content ensures that the coffee table is where it will stay."

•"I once though I was very clever, when I bought A Guide to Tolkien, by David Day. Now, I'm not so sure."

•"David Day's work is not a reliable guide to the intricately detailed world of J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth novels. Day is entirely subjective, interposing his own interpretations and additions onto Tolkien's text. Tolkien's fans, who tend to have their own strongly-held opinions about such things, will most likely be annoyed, offended, or outraged."

Okay, I get the idea. How is it that this guy hasn't been taken to task?

Barley

Walter · Nov 18, 2004

Indeed, Steuard Jensen is another very diligent Tolkien reader and his FAQ are "state of the art", IMHO...

I'm glad you got the idea, but still I would suggest that you try cross-checking certain passages of Day's elaborations with Tolkien's original writings and you should soon come to the conclusion that Day has a very "creative approach" to Tolkien and doesn't stay close to the facts...

But I'm afraid there is no "taking to task" of certain authors - other than the Tolkien fans refusing to buy their books - who, like Day, have such a "creative approach" and wrote their books "unblurred by the facts Tolkien provided"...

Regarding the Istari: Pretty much all additional information to what is said in LotR can be found in the essay about the Istari in Unfinished Tales (plus a little more information provided in the Silmarillion chapter "Of the Rings of Power...", the short chapter "The Five Wizards" in "Last Writings" of HoMeXII, and in the Letters)

Ithrynluin · Nov 19, 2004

JPMaximilian said:
Even if Radagast was "unfaithful" he was still good at heart I believe. I would like to think that he lived out a long life in Mirkwood in relative peace. Though he did not do all in his power to combat evil, he did resist the will of Sauron whilst the more powerful Saruman could not. I believe that is a tribute to the character of Radagast.

But then again, Radagast never had any contact with Sauron or his (more powerful) minions, that we know of. The palantir in Saruman's possesion was a big factor in his being ensnared by Sauron, I believe.

Oh, and welcome to the forums, Max!

Elemmire said:
Radagast might not have been faithful to the initial cause of the Istari (and only the Valar...and maybe Cirdan...know what that was), but in the end, his own, less direct contributions proved equally important (especially with the eagles, as Gothmog already said a while ago...)

Certainly, Radagast's actions had a great impact on some crucial events, but I would not say his contributions proved equally important as Gandalf's. The grey pilgrim came to be the main mover of the forces of good in Middle-earth, and bore the brunt of the responsibility and pressure in organizing the resistance to Sauron. His labours were huge and highly admirable.

JPMaximilian · Nov 19, 2004

Ithrynluin said:
But then again, Radagast never had any contact with Sauron or his (more powerful) minions, that we know of. The palantir in Saruman's possesion was a big factor in his being ensnared by Sauron, I believe.

Very true. However, I would not assume that Radagast is guilty on the grounds that he never had the opportunity to be lured to evil in the way Saruman was.

I think the palantir lessens Saruman's culpability somewhat, however, he had many opportunities to repent. Saruman was more powerful than Radagast, he therefore has more responsibility.

Ithrynluin said:
Oh, and welcome to the forums, Max!

Thank you, this Forum seems to be a great source of knowledge.

Arvedui · Nov 20, 2004

JPMaximilian said:
Thank you, this Forum seems to be a great source of knowledge.

And you are most welcome to make it greater.

Welcome aboard!

MichaelMartinez · Nov 21, 2004

Walter said:
Indeed, Steuard Jensen is another very diligent Tolkien reader and his FAQ are "state of the art", IMHO...

That is an unwarranted amount of praise for Steuard's work, which leaves much to be desired in terms of its completeness and the fact that it remains biased in several areas. However, he is a much more reliable source of information than David Day.

But I'm afraid there is no "taking to task" of certain authors - other than the Tolkien fans refusing to buy their books - who, like Day, have such a "creative approach" and wrote their books "unblurred by the facts Tolkien provided"...

Oh, Christopher Tolkien has reputedly called Day a "literary burglar". But since Day's work is largely original, there is not much the Tolkien Estate can do about it.

Arvedui · Nov 22, 2004

Well his works are surely 'original.'
I was stupid enough to buy a David Day-book once, and I still wonder if we have read the same works of Tolkien.... Sometimes he is so off-base that even I can see that he is clearly wrong.

Walter · Nov 22, 2004

MichaelMartinez said:
That is an unwarranted amount of praise for Steuard's work, which leaves much to be desired in terms of its completeness and the fact that it remains biased in several areas. However, he is a much more reliable source of information than David Day.

Well, I had praised the diligence of a certain M. Martinez one post earlier and I felt that Steuard's efforts deserve some praise too.

Regarding completeness: I have yet to meet an author who's work does not leave room for improvement, even the works of the most renowned Tolkien scholars around (e.g. Shippey, Flieger, Drout, Anderson, Hammond, Scull - to name but a few) are IMO far from being "complete".

Regarding bias: It is only all too human to see ones own interpretation of certain facts as the only "correct" or "valid" interpretation, even when there are more - often equally justified - ways to interpret those facts.

Aiglos · Feb 27, 2005

Hi guys. This is my first post (ever!) so hope this isn't a banal question...?Somewhere in the Unfinished or Lost tales, there's a reference to how the Istari were ranked by the Valar. I can't find it. Can someone post it here. Think it gives the reasons for Saruman being "in charge" of the others...?

I know it had a good line from Vanya in it.

ASLAN THE GREAT · Feb 27, 2005

here this may help you

Who were the Istari?
From: the gary haven web site

The origin of the Wizards is never really made clear within the Lord of the Rings, and there has been some debate about just to what race they belong. However, there is a chapter dealing with them in the book Unfinished Tales, and a great deal of Tolkien's intent is presented within the chapter "The Istari," which most people are unaware of.

A note by Tolkien (Unfinished Tales, page 394), dated by his son as probably coming from 1972, right before Tolkien died, basically states right out their origins and purpose.

We must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar, that is persons of the 'angelic' order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were 'spirits', but capable of self-incarnation, and could take 'humane' (especially Elvish) forms... Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle Earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and the Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South. It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together... and that each had different powers and... were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.

When Eru created the world, he sent fourteen of the greater members of his spiritual choir (the Ainur) to guide and protect the world and its peoples. Many lesser spirits went as well, to serve as helpers and servants. The greater spirits became known as the Valar, while the lesser were termed the Maiar. The Wizards gained their power through being supernatural beings who had predated the creation of the world. Another note in Unfinished Tales (page 395), about Gandalf specifically, says:

It was believed by many of the 'Faithful' that 'Gandalf' was the last appearance of Manwë himself... But I think it was not so... To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

The text after this is an etymological analysis of what "Olórin" means, and the significance of the name, and what it says about Gandalf's character. Throughout this section, though, which was one of the last sections to be composed, Gandalf (and I would infer by extension all the Istari) are Maiar. There is also an isolated mention of the name "Olórin" in the Silmarillion, where he is referred to as being a Maiar who frequently visited (the Valinorean) Lórien.

One last interesting piece of evidence comes from a brief narrative of a council of the Ainur (printed on page 393 of Unfinished Tales), which is incomplete and had illegible pieces, but which clearly demonstrates the messengers to be of that class of being, and the also sheds some light on the purpose given the Wizards when they were sent to Middle Earth.

It was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. 'Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh.' But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin... asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth... But Olórin replied that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go...

The narrative goes on to tell how Curumo (Saruman) takes Aiwendil (Radagast) at the pleading of Yavanna, and that Pallando is brought by Alatar as a friend. With Olórin added to the mix, the total of five Istari mentioned in the appendix to the Lord of the Rings is reached. The meeting in question is intriguing because it demonstrates a possible origin for Saruman's contempt of Radagast. Also made clear is the reason why Gandalf refrained from using his power to persuade people like Denethor to listen to him: it was forbidden (which made Saruman's failure all the greater).

Defining something in Middle Earth is difficult, because technically nothing besides the Lord of the Rings is final. However, since Tolkien's writing in this section, being as late in his life as it was, probably represented the last opinion he developed of the issue of Wizardly origins, it seems fair to announce: the Wizards were Maiar.

Aiglos · Mar 2, 2005

Thanks Aslan.

That's the passage I was thinking of.

It also mentions something about Gandalf going "not as the third" and also about how it was telling that Aule chose Saruman and that Suaron was also originally of Aule's people. Aule's got a lot to answer for eh?

Alcuin · Mar 9, 2005

Perhaps Radagast’s error is not a sin of commission, but a sin of omission. Gandalf calls him “the honest Radagast” at the Council of Elrond. But the task of the Istari was to unite Elves and Men (and presumably Dwarves) to contest the power of Sauron without matching his power with theirs, and without dominating Elves or Men by force or fear. (Paraphrase of the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales.) In becoming enamored of the creatures of Middle-Earth, Radagast failed to fulfill his primary task. It isn’t that he was fallen in the sense that Saruman fell, but rather that he substituted the task he was assigned with one that he preferred; and incidentally, one safer than his assigned work, easier, and more enjoyable.

Is anyone interested in the relationship between Sauron and Saruman? They both were in their origins Maiar of Aulë. How similar are they? Does Sauron recognize Saruman in the palantir for what and perhaps even who he is? What clues does Tolkien provide, and how are these related to Saruman’s fall? (If this belongs in another thread, please redirect me.)

And finally, has anyone noticed that when the One Ring is destroyed, Sauron takes the form of a great dark cloud crowned with lightning, which is blown away by a wind from the West; while Saruman’s spirit after his murder by Wormtongue manifests itself as a grey mist like a smoke in the form of a pale shrouded figure, also blown away by a wind from the West. Is there some literary significance here: writings that might have inspired Tolkien from his medieval studies, some other mythological or traditional influence that might have been developed into this recurrent element?

Nazgul Officer · Mar 10, 2005

i think the other two just returned to the undying lands. but wouldnt it have been fab to have seen the other wizards join in the fight hehe!

Vardarianna · Sep 10, 2025

This was an interesting discussion on the Istari!

Gothmog said:
Tolkien gave a couple of views on this. One was that they fell into evil and were the start of "magic cults", another is that they did remain faithful to the mission and ensured that the armies of Sauron were less than they would have been otherwise. We do not however, have any certain answer.
Gandalf did gain as much help from Radagast as he could. It was through Radagast that the Eagles were involved at all.

I think the 'magic cult' line is being used as a basis for 'the dark wizard' in Rings of Power. Personally I like the idea that they did remain faithful to the mission and ensured that the armies of Sauron were less than they would have been otherwise.

Alcuin said:
Perhaps Radagast’s error is not a sin of commission, but a sin of omission. Gandalf calls him “the honest Radagast” at the Council of Elrond. But the task of the Istari was to unite Elves and Men (and presumably Dwarves) to contest the power of Sauron without matching his power with theirs, and without dominating Elves or Men by force or fear. (Paraphrase of the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales.) In becoming enamored of the creatures of Middle-Earth, Radagast failed to fulfill his primary task. It isn’t that he was fallen in the sense that Saruman fell, but rather that he substituted the task he was assigned with one that he preferred; and incidentally, one safer than his assigned work, easier, and more enjoyable.

Is anyone interested in the relationship between Sauron and Saruman? They both were in their origins Maiar of Aulë. How similar are they? Does Sauron recognize Saruman in the palantir for what and perhaps even who he is? What clues does Tolkien provide, and how are these related to Saruman’s fall? (If this belongs in another thread, please redirect me.)

And finally, has anyone noticed that when the One Ring is destroyed, Sauron takes the form of a great dark cloud crowned with lightning, which is blown away by a wind from the West; while Saruman’s spirit after his murder by Wormtongue manifests itself as a grey mist like a smoke in the form of a pale shrouded figure, also blown away by a wind from the West. Is there some literary significance here: writings that might have inspired Tolkien from his medieval studies, some other mythological or traditional influence that might have been developed into this recurrent element?

This writing by Alcuin has me pondering the relationship between Saruman and Sauron. I have never really thought about it this deep before.

From the Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond. This was Gandalf talking to Radagast. said:
` "Stay a moment! " I said. "We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it. Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends. Tell them to bring news of anything that bears on this matter to Saruman and Gandalf. Let messages be sent to Orthanc."
` "I will do that," he said, and rode off as if the Nine were after him.

From the Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond. Later in the chapter Gandalf says: said:
`That was the undoing of Saruman's plot. For Radagast knew no reason why he should not do as I asked; and he rode away towards Mirkwood where he had many friends of old. And the Eagles of the Mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things: the gathering of wolves and the mustering of Orcs; and the Nine Riders going hither and thither in the lands; and they heard news of the escape of Gollum. And they sent a messenger to bring these tidings to me.
`So it was that when summer waned, there came a night of moon, and Gwaihir the Windlord, swiftest of the Great Eagles, came unlooked-for to Orthanc; and he found me standing on the pinnacle. Then I spoke to him and he bore me away, before Saruman was aware. I was far from Isengard, ere the wolves and orcs issued from the gate to pursue me.

I always believed Radagast the Brown was 'eccentrically faithful' to his charge. He clearly didn't like dealing with people, and found love in the plants and an animals, and in this way, assisted in helping the good.

Elthir · Sep 11, 2025

Old Raddy ate a moth
(it drownded in his chicken broth),

stranding Gandy back in "Iron-town"
(atop a windy tower top). And looking down

the Wizard frowned, nearly stumped!
"Well maybe I'll just jump!"

said the Istar blowing smoke!
(he spoke in grey to match his cloak)

II

And O there was an eagle too
(who knew the tale like me and you)

who freaked and flew to you-know-who
(the Lord of Air who spoke in blue)

And Manwe said: My heavens no!
Did Varda say that you could go!

Let them destroy that awful ring
that band made by that darkling king!
Good Lord, must we do everything!

🦅

Klaatu · Sep 11, 2025

Far off in Rhûn where the red moon glows,
two Blue Wizards wandered (in rather odd clothes).
They got lost in riddles, and tangled in lore,
and forgot what their actual mission was for.

One tried to summon a cosmic steed—
instead conjured turnips (not what they need).
The other proclaimed: “We’ll save the day!”
then fell asleep for a century (give or take a May).

So east they drifted, with hats askew,
saving the world (or perhaps just a shrew).
And when the West asked, “How goes the fight?”
they sent back a postcard: “We’re doing all right!”

—Klaatu, Keeper of Seagull Thrones,
Importer of Comets,
and Occasional Advisor to Turnip Kings

Eljorahir · Sep 11, 2025

Inquiring of the wizards Blue?
I’ll give the answer to you:
For they skedaddled
Before any battles
After they tried Eowyn’s stew.

(I know, the timeline doesn’t work, but at least it rhymes.)

Ent · Sep 11, 2025

From whence come all these poets new?
For in the past we've seen but few.
Yet from this 'page' words above grew,
as though 'tis common these to brew.

Yes, this old Ent thought no surprise
remained yet to him here - no wise!
Yet now partakes he of great prize:
from unexpected pens they rise.

How much is there ahead to learn?
Are there still hidden gifts a-churn?
Or will such things but crash and burn?
Ne'er such gift should any spurn.

So wield those words - yes spin them fine
and let what light be in you shine.
Pour out your treasures line by line ,
as these go down better than wine.

What of the other 🧙Istari?

Worthy Keeper/Bree Roué

Flamekeeper

Worthy Keeper/Bree Roué

Flamekeeper

seeker of solace

Ranger & Student of Lore

Stargazer

🤡 - Banned User

Stargazer

Flamekeeper

Sharp Pointy Object

MASTER OF NARAIA

Sharp Pointy Object

of Zarkanya

No man can kill me!

Princess of Arnor and Gondor

Cat in a Coat

Ambassador of Inevitable Consequences

Seeking the strange paths of Elvish dreams

Pondering Ponderings Ponderings

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