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Where Can Female 🧌Orcs Be Found in Tolkien's Writings?

Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...
 
Nowadays, a possibility for the breeding of Orcs would be cloning (I think the "Star Wars" legendarium went down that path). But that certainly was nothing JRRT - or even the most advanced biologists of his day - could have contemplated.

At least in the insect world, there are species that can produce offspring from unfertilized eggs, the aphids among them (and male bees). So it is possible for individuals to exist with only one set of chromosomes (or genes), instead of the two sets that are to be found in fertilized eggs. But this, too, might not have been known in JRRT's time.
 
TrackerOrc said:
Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...
Click to expand...

I think you may have missed the relevant point of the consideration of Orcs as Automatons.

Tolkien had considered this only for the First Age, or earlier, as if that was the only form of “Orc” in existence then with Morgoth’s banishment, all of the Orcs would have become statues, unable to move or do anything without Morgoth’s Will being focused upon them.

In the essays Tolkien wrote for himself regarding Orcs, this was one of the reasons he rejected it. Although, as I pointed out, that “rejection” was likely too hasty, as prior to the Children of Eru awakening in Middle-earth, this would have been a relatively effective means of producing “soldiers” for his use, that would have continued to be of use even after the corruption/perversion of Elves and Humans created the Race(s) of Orcs that could breed “biologically.”

One of the features that Tolkien most attributed to all other forms of “Orc,” though, was Rebelliousness. Whether those Orcs were what Tolkien identified as Boldoeg (very minor Maiar), or whether they were “mere Animals, without Fëar,“ and thus unable to truly comprehend speech, although able to mimic it, as do parrots... Or whether they were corrupted/perverted Elves and Humans, all of them possessed, as the core of their being a “Hatred of Morgoth, and of existence itself.” That made them especially “independent,” as you have put it.

But of any Orcs that Morgoth “assembled” (so as to draw a distinction with Tolkien obsession over “Creation,” where Tolkien was freakishly overly literal) which were “automatons,” Sauron’s Will would have been inadequate to “Motivate” this population of Orcs, and at best they would have provided him with a few tens of thousands of automaton-Orcs that he could draw-upon in times of great need. But otherwise... At the capture, binding, and ejection of Morgoth from the Circles of the World, all of the “Automaton Orcs” would have ceased moving, and basically become statues that sank beneath the waves with the rest of Beleriand.

One of the benefits for having given little attention to Tolkien’s “Toy Languages” (This is a linguistic term for an “invented language.” It isn’t a pejorative meant to diminish Tolkien’s work on those languages), and instead studied the Theology, Philosophy, and Metaphysics of Middle-earth is that you discover a LOT of things that tend to leave many people wondering about, yet which Tolkien actually provided an answer to. It is just that these answers are not in the form of:

The answer to Question X is A, B, and C.
Click to expand...

Many people miss these answers due to being focused either upon the Languages, or that they are looking for more “story” (a narrative history of events within Middle-earth).

In any event... Teasing these things out of what Tolkien did leave is not an easy process.


While cloning could be a possibility for Orcs, it is something that would have been a likely impossibility within Middle-earth. It is a subject where there is a LOT of contention within the Catholic Church over, due to the issue of “Where does a Clone get its Soul?”

It was precisely that issue that gave Tolkien such grief over the question of “What are Orcs, anyway?” And to a Catholic, the existence of, and granting of a “Soul” is a freakishly huge and consequential issue. I only know enough Catholic Theology to know that the whole Idea of Cloning a Human is utter anathema. Because doing so would mean a “Soulless pretender,” among other things.

That doesn’t mean that I, personally, agree with their stance... But only that Tolkien certainly would.

And we have a LOT of different animals, and plants, that are capable of parthenogenesis (producing offspring from what might be considered “unfertilized eggs.”

That would be another “no-no” in Middle-earth, however, because in Catholic Theology, Parthenogenesis occurred precisely once in our universe, in a poor Levantine girl named “Mary,” who was “impregnated” by the Holy Ghost by way of the “Father,” to give birth to himself as the “Son.” .... So it is very likely that had Tolkien been aware of things like Snakes, Crocodiles, Frogs, Fish, a handful or Birds, and legions of insects, who were capable of producing offspring without the need of a “mate” (and it is ALWAYS the females who do this) he would have been unable to bring himself to allow this to exist in Middle-earth, even as an act of supreme-evil by what he identified as “Satan” or the “Diabolus” (that’s Morgoth... Tolkien regularly referred to him as “Satan,” and to Sauron as “The Devil”).

And... As I mentioned previously... It is not out of the realm of possibility that Tolkien could have confessed considering such things as a plot device for his Mythology to his Priest, as having had “impure thoughts” (a pretty common “filler” in Catholic Confessions, but in Tolkien’s case, something he would very likely have actually confessed to due to his attempts to answer questions like “What are Orcs, anyway?”). And one of the most common orders from a Confessor to a Petitioner is to “Cease the activity that causes these impure thoughts,” which would have caused Tolkien to forever abandon that line of thought....

But in terms of simple Biology, we needn’t resort to something so elaborate or resource-intensive as Cloning or forms of Parthenogenesis. A simple CRISPR-Cas9 would be enough to gain the relevant traits needed to corrupt/pervert Elves or Humans to an Orc that produces Orc Offspring. And CRISPR doesn’t violate nearly as many “inviolate” Catholic Tenets or Beliefs.

But they are certainly methods (especially certain possible analogs to “cloning”) that Sauron could have resorted to in order to rapidly fill-out the ranks of an army.

And another area that I didn’t touch-upon here is the Predator-Prey Models that would be applicable to Orcs (who would be an Apex Predator in Middle-earth) that also impact how they came into being, or were “reproduced.”

But it is well-past my bedtime, now...

MB
 
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Yes, that point is the critical one where this breaks down for orcs. While one aspect of haplodiploid insects such as bees fits quite well, that the unfertilized eggs produce only males (drones), this would necessitate the existence of "queen bee" Orcs, as only females produce the necessary eggs - quite the opposite of a "solution" to the question of female Orcs!
 
TrackerOrc said:
Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...
Click to expand...


Tracker, this was indeed part of Tolkien's reasoning in Myths Transformed, Orc text VIII:

"1) As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.

2) ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something."

Again, one might read that as Tolkien reconsidering automatons and rejecting it (now that I've actually taken the book out myself, for a memory refresh). Okay. To my mind JRRT never really goes there too seriously at least, "stomping" on the idea right off and confirming what he had already imagined years before (corruptions)

And as for early orcs, before corruptions (Elves, Men) became easily available, in the MT "orc texts" Tolkien imagined:

Text VIII Maiar-orcs "could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs," who could practice procreation. Text IX Morgoth had "numerous corrupted minor spirits" in his service
Text X "greater and more terrible" Maiar orcs are noted here -- where JRRT also pushed back the Awakening of Men to allow an "Orcs from Men" conclusion here, for the "regular" kind of orc, at least.

🐾
 
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I only meant to point out that in the LoTR itself, the primary source for the actual story, the orcs are as individual and independent as any other ace of ME - perhaps even more so than some!
Their origins outside the story, whilst endlessly fascinating, don't actually have to have a bearing on LoTR itself?

So are these orc texts part of the HoME series? I'm waiting on delivery of vol 6-9 and UT, so are they in there somewhere?
 
Tracker, I don't want you to be too disappointed by the orc texts in Morgoth's Ring (although the book contains heaps of other great stuff, like the conversation between Finrod and Andreth for example), but very briefly here . . .

Myths Transformed [MT] text 7 ends with a description about a possible orc-origin.

Orc text (MT text 8) is relatively short, Tolkien thinking with his pen.

Orc text (MT text 9) is very short in any case!

Orc text (MT text 10) is the best of them, as far as being a fuller, more finished text anyway, and seemingly represents Tolkien's "final" decision (Orcs from Men plus Maiar-orcs) according to Christopher Tolkien -- although CJRT then adds a couple more notes that might possibly undermine this seeming finality -- but which notes, I myself don't find very problematic, especially given that in another late note published in Unfinished Tales (a note to The Druedain), Tolkien writes that the Eldar say (at least) that the source for Orcs were various kinds of Men

-- and while this might be seen to represent an Eldarin opinion, in any case, contrast this to the earlier idea of the Wise of Eressea with respect to Orcs as corrupted Elves, the notion taken up into Christopher Tolkien's 1977 Silmarillion.

Anyway, doesn't mean these texts aren't interesting, I'm just saying they won't take up much of your time as far as reading them, even combined.

 
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I'll basically be reading this stuff as a very secondary source for LoTR; I'll probably end up buying all the HoME series (again!) and dipping in and out of them just for interest. I'm sure that I'll stick to my usual vague thoughts that the orcs are the baddies, therefore interesting, and be happy with that!
 
One thought has sluggishly made it's way, that of sexual dimorphism (or the lack thereof). In mammals, the biggest difference seems to exist with the (southern) elephant seal, where the really big males at 9.000 pounds seem to be at least four times as heavy as females (and perhaps ten times as much, as per the article). Among the order of primates, the gorillas seem to have the greatest dimorphism, at about two to one. in weight.

But there are other primates where the dimorphism is close to nonexistent. Granted, all are much smaller than we and our nearest cousins, in descending order chimpanzees / bonobos, gorillas, Orang-Utans and gibbons (all tailless primates). So, hypothesis, if the Dwarven women were difficult to tell from the men (something PJ made a "point" of in the TTT EE), perhaps it was even more difficult with the Orcs. So from the first battles the Orcs appeared in, these Orc forces were co-ed armies? In pack / pride carnivore "societies", the lighter females were very often the better, faster hunters. In extreme cases, they "only" needed the (much, in the case of lions) heavier males to take down big prey which the females had already brought to bay.

But if daddy and mommy (indistinguishable for their enemies?) are both involved in warfare which often led to horrendous losses - what about the kids? First guess (mine, anyway) would tend towards a fairly "developed" day-care system. Immediately, the question arises in my mind: "developed" in what sense? By JRRT's writings to produce malcontent, murderous, suicidal if necessary lunatics …
 
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Squint-eyed Southerner said:
Tolkien later changed his mind, and decided orcs were bred from Men -- probably for some of the reasons you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Not quite...

He “changed his mind” on this subject no fewer than a half-dozen times.

The Essay from The History of Middle-earth, Vol. X: Morgoth’s Ring: Orcs, muses about their origins, but he never settles/settled upon a definitive “solution” to his predicament.

As is noted in Letters, and in the above mentioned Essay from HoM-e, X, is that he could not imagine Melkor/Morgoth as having done something so “Evil.” In having gone through a great many of his assorted “essays” at the Bodleian Library in the Early-1980s just as Christopher Tolkien was beginning to collect them to organize for the creation of the works published after The Silmarillion, I discovered a great many cases where Tolkien balked at a solution to a “problem” in Middle-earth’s Metaphysics, Theology, Ontology, Teleology, etc., simply because he was uncomfortable with “Thinking like Satan” (his words).

Which frames the point regarding his inability to decide how the Orcs “came to be,” as he was recoiling from a thought he explored regarding their creation which he considered to be “Too Evil to contemplate” (“Evil” with a Capital-E). Yet Satan/Morgoth would have absolutely no compunction against such actions. He’s freaking “Satan,” or the ”Existence of Evil-Incarnate” within Middle-earth. He’s not going to worry too terribly about violating some unspoken moral or ethical “norm” of Middle-earth.

He also noticed that Orcs could not be “Men” (Humans) due to their existing thousands of years prior to the awakening of “Mankind” in Hildórien. He had already commented in the section of HoM-e, V: X after the Essay Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth that the “Original Sin of Humanity” was not nearly distant-enough in the Past for Humanity given the then given length of the First Age, which would have barely allowed for two generations between the Edain and others of the Faithful who fled Hildórien after the “Fall of Humanity” to Morgothism in the first Century after their awakening. He felt that the First Age of Middle-earth needed to be lengthened by at least 2,000 to 3,000 Years in order to make it effectively the same length of time as the following Two Ages, as well as allowing for sufficient time for many events he identified in his accounts of the First Age having

In looking at the different conceptions of Orcs that Tolkien hit upon, he did admit to their being at least two separate types; one of which was derived from minor Maiar, which Tolkien had labeled as Boldoeg Orcs. These Orcs were Fallen/Corrupted Minor Maiar, and other “Spirits,” who had permanently taken on the “Clothing/Flesh” of an Orc. The other type of Orc that Tolkien thus identified was “All other Orcs.”

But really... There is no reason why ALL of the different forms of “Orc” cannot exist within Middle-earth. These amount to:

• Minor Maiar or Spirits.
• Automatons who only move/act when Morgoth “Wills” them to do so (Much like a Golem).
• Intelligent Beasts who, like the Ravens near Erebor or the Eagles of Manwë, are capable of Speech of some kind, and of having some kind of “understanding” of that Speech.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of Elves.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of Humanity.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of BOTH Elves/Humanity.

None of these are mutually exclusive, and they can account for many distinctions we see in Tolkien’s works where some sort of Ontological or Metaphysical difference exists between the different groups of Orcs we see.

But Tolkien’s Catholic Faith prevented him from accepting a great-many of these solutions, as they too-closely embodied very real Heresies to Catholicism, making it especially difficult for Tolkien to tolerate their existence within Middle-earth (this is technically a problem that has afflicted Catholicism since the 4th Century CE, when these Heresies first began to be seen, identified, and labeled as such). And Middle-earth supposedly being the Perfect Realization of Catholic Creation, would struggle to remain-so with applying these Metaphysical Solutions to the various problems that arise.

This is because Catholicism itself has these issues remaining unresolved, due to each of the issues necessarily leading back to the same Heresies with any possible solution that can exist.

But, given the Flexibility of Catholicism, I think adopting these Solutions as Contingent upon a future revisiting of the relevant issues in order to bring Catholicism yet again up to our Contemporary Understanding of the Universe is the best possible solution that can exist.

As for “Female Orcs...”

As I likely already pointed out... They exist for those Orcs where a Female Orc is needed. For the instances where a Female Orc isn’t needed, it’s likely they don’t exist for such Orcs.

MB
 
Christopher Tolkien, commentary, MR, MT Text X:

"This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if "the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought" it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned."

Of course Christopher Tolkien adds . . .

"But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript . . ."

. . . and he next points to two late notes which only might cast doubt on the idea. For myself, neither of these later notes cast enough measure of doubt on the idea, even if "it's possible" is in play. That said, what Tolkien might have landed on, versus what I think he might have published, are (again for me) two different questions.

Anyway the first note has to do with a seeming glitch in chronology compared to text X. Without going into Tolkien's altering of the time of the Awakening of Men (pushing it back), in any case, the problematic sentence hails from a rough draft for a passage in the late note in question -- a sentence that does not appear in the revised note.

Also, this first late note shows Tolkien picking up on a point from Text X (orcs from Maiar and Men) and delving into it. I would naturally think then, that the main idea in text X is still in play, but Tolkien, perhaps even accidentally, states something here that appears to contradict text X -- yet as noted, he then revises it, which in any event, results in agreement with text X.

In other words:

____________________

Text X (Orcs from Maiar and Men): After his return from Aman, Morgoth has large numbers of Orcs from Men.

Two later notes:

A) Note one -- rough draft: seemingly before and after Morgoth returns from Aman, he has great numbers of Orcs -- again, keeping in mind this is Tolkien picking up on a point in text X, Orcs from Maiar and Men.

Note one: Tolkien revises the draft, meaning the late note is now in step with text X with respect to chronology. JRRT could have done this revision very quickly, and he could have been thinking that the revised time of the Awakening of Men allowed for this "before" remark, but changed his mind. The timing of the Awakening of Men was still up for revision in any case.

And granted it's possible that Tolkien had altered his opinion and added Elves to the mix here, for instance, allowing for great numbers "before" . . . but I find this unlikely. Tolkien adds Elves to text X at this point? And if so, doesn't state this directly? The main thrust for the later note deals with Orcs possibly seeming to be mere puppets, while rather they were "absorbed" orcs, not puppets.

B) The second late note has to do with the spelling of ork -- and noting that Tolkien said he would spell the word as ork back in text IX need not mean Tolkien was reverting to the ideas put forth in text IX (not that I'm saying Christopher Tolkien necessarily thinks his father was reverting back to the ideas expressed in text IX, but in any case the note exists and is published here for readers to know about and muse upon).

____________________

Add to this the late note (author's note, note 7 if I recall correctly) to The Druedain in Unfinished Tales (yes, an Eldarin perspective on the mannish origin of Orcs, but compare this to the earlier idea from the Wise of Eressea) and in my opinion, the case for thinking that Tolkien landed on orcs hailing from Maiar and Men is pretty good, or at least seems a reasonable argument given the texts from HOME and UT.

🐾
 
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I'm reading The Silmarillion rn, and on page 50 (of my edition), Tolkien wrote, "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar...". The Children of Ilúvatar are of course elves and men, so if Orcs are to reproduce as us humans do, then there must be Orc women. So while I'm not familiar with all of Tolkien's letters and other works concerning the creation of orcs, I'm going to follow the teachings presented in The Simlarillion.

But since you brought up the question of cloning... the Catholic Church holds that human cloning is intrinsically evil (https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-is-human-cloning-wrong) but that a human clone would have a soul (https://www.catholic.com/qa/would-a-human-clone-have-a-soul). This is all off the original topic however

So as for all of the biological discussion happening in the above posts, I think it's important to remember that this is in fact a fictitious world we are discussing! We have giant eagles, moving trees, and magic rings... so while it is interesting to discuss the biological origins of orcs, I'm not going to lose any sleep trying to figure it out
 
In the first post in this thread, RL already knew about Tolkien's letter, which basically says orc women exist (which is not surprising to me given the quote from The Silmarillion already provided in the thread). Just to stamp that letter again, on page three.

"There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known" JRRT

Thus, to bring it back to the original question, RL asked whether or not orc-women are referred to in the canonical or non-canonical works.
 
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