Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard

Grond · Apr 23, 2002

Originally posted by Ulairi
...We do not know where Bombadil is from, and we will never know. But Bombadil cannot be a Maia, a Vala or Iluvatar. If you want me to show you why then I will. I posted it somewhere else. So what is Bombadil and where is he from? We will never know. Tolkien may or may not have contradicted himself as we do not know where Bombadil is from. It looks like I have filled the hole back in and I have got myself out of the corner Grond.

Wrong again!!! Ulari, you are only right in saying that we don't know what Tom Bombadil is. That means that he could be anything... a Vala, a Maia or Iluvator. Since Tolkien defined him as an enigma, he certainly would not fit the bill as a "living creature". He is something else... he is something more.

The hole is not filled it... it is just getting bigger.

Úlairi · Apr 23, 2002

Tom Bombadil could not be Iluvatar as it clearly states in the Council of Elrond in LotR:

"...soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."

So, Bomadil is not Iluvatar or one of the Valar for that matter as not even Elrond or the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could withstand the power of Sauron. Simply because the Valar and Iluvatar were more powerful than Sauron therefore they could defy him, which is not true. Another reason is that that not one of the Valar should return to ME until the end of time when Morgoth escapes the void, and Turin Turambar slays him, so, therefore Bombadil could bot be a Vala.

The reason Bombadil could not be a Maia is because all Maia were attracted to the Ring, desiring to wear it and to claim its power for themselves. Olorin (Gandalf) was drawn to it and Curumo (Saruman) above all desired it. Yet Bombadil did not care for it at all. The Council of Elrond even believed that Bombadil would be an unsafe guardian of the One. So Bombadil was neither Iluvatar, a Vala or a Maia. He is simply an enigma.

Originally posted by Grond
The hole is not filled it... it is just getting bigger.

I don't think so anymore Grond.

Grond · Apr 24, 2002

Tom could be anything. He is, as you say, an enigma. An undefined entity that has great power of undefined origins. You can say what you think he isn't all day Ulari, but you have proven nothing. The key word in your last post the neither Elrond nor any of the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could stand against Sauron. There is no certainty there.

Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron. Or maybe, he is the personification of Middle-earth itself. The true Earth-spirit, which would also make him older than Treebeard while still leaving Treebeard as the oldest living creature.

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
Tom could be anything. He is, as you say, an enigma. An undefined entity that has great power of undefined origins. You can say what you think he isn't all day Ulari, but you have proven nothing. The key word in your last post the neither Elrond nor any of the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could stand against Sauron. There is no certainty there.

Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron. Or maybe, he is the personification of Middle-earth itself. The true Earth-spirit, which would also make him older than Treebeard while still leaving Treebeard as the oldest living creature.

Elrond, the wisest of the Elves, wrong? Well all I have to say to that is... perhaps you're right Grond. I think you may agree now that the so-called 'hole' is non-existent as we cannot say that Bombadil was living or not so either argument is valid in this case. Perhaps Bombadil was a part of Iluvatar's 'Third Symphony' in which the Ainur did not know of it very well. Maybe Bombadil was a part of it like Ungoliant therefore, if I am correct than I can safely say that Bombadil was living, but we cannot say that he was. He could be anything, and I am greatly frustrated that Tolkien did not elaborate any further on Bombadil, but, if he had, than you and I would have nothing to argue about which I would greatly miss. I will not accept the fact, however, that Bombadil wasn't living as there is no proof to support your argument but that is also the same with mine. So, I think we can call this one a stalemate, wouldn't you agree Grond O mighty hammer of the Underworld?

Beleg Strongbow · Apr 24, 2002

Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron.

That is what i beleive it too.

Grond · Apr 24, 2002

Originally posted by Niniel
I was just wondering about this myself, because I didn't know it either. The only thing I can think of is that one of them (I suppose Bombadil) is not really a living creature, but a spirit or something.

Originally posted by Rangerdave
...Tom is not a race or a species, Tom is Tom. Therefor Tom can not be counted among the races of Middle-Earth. This makes his age of no consequence in deteriming who is first.

Originally posted by Gothmog
...So I think that Tom Bombadil was the First, But Treebeard was still the 'Oldest living creature'

Originally posted by Thorin
...So Bombadil is the Eldest, but as for created living beings, Treebeard is still the oldest...

Originally posted by Bucky
...I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
...But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron.

Ulari, there is no definite answer, which you well knew when you posted this thread. You asked for "opinions" and "opinions" you got. The concensus is the one put forward early in the thread by fair Niniel, that Tom is not deemed a "living creature". So, since the question you posed is unanswerable in a definitive way, you have your stalemate. But... of course you knew that when you posted the thread.

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
Ulari, there is no definite answer, which you well knew when you posted this thread. You asked for "opinions" and "opinions" you got. The concensus is the one put forward early in the thread by fair Niniel, that Tom is not deemed a "living creature". So, since the question you posed is unanswerable in a definitive way, you have your stalemate. But... of course you knew that when you posted the thread.

Yes Grond, I got my opinions and there is no proof to say that those opinions are wrong. Perhaps Tom was not a living creature and perhaps he was, therefore perhaps Tolkien contradicted himself and perhaps he didn't. Yes, I have my stalemate. I new this when I posted the thread, but I had hoped that someone could provide definite evidence to either prove or disprove the contradiction, because I believed that such as source could be found in The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien, a book that I do not own nor have seen, it is the bok that I most want to get my claws into.

Grond · Apr 24, 2002

Ulari, The Letters of JRRT will be a wonderful and joyful read for you, but, alas, you will find no further information on these matters. My opinions on Tom come from the letters. It is there that the author identifies him as an enigma and goes into as much detail as you will get... but there are no definitives other than he is a mystery.

I know. I am old. I have all of his books which concern Middle-earth. Every last one of them.

Úlairi · Apr 24, 2002

Yes, all I need to read is two more of the HoME and the Letters of JRRT and I shall then read them all again and I aspire to be as much of a Tolkienologist as you Grond, as I have many years ahead of me. I will not let Tolkien interfere with school as the two most important years of my schooling life are quickly approaching and in those next two years I can guarantee that you will not see much of me, if you hear from me at all. When that time comes, I will tell ReadWryt and the WM that I wish to stay on the forum and that I would return more Tolkien knowledgeable than I had ever been before. As a matter of interest Grond, you continually say in various threads that you are old, if it is not too personal, may I ask of your age? I believe that it may be appropriate to PM your age to me if you wish to tell me at all.

To quote someone I once admired

"...with age comes wisdom, my young friend, never forget that."

So, the older you are the wiser you must be Grond.

Grond · Apr 24, 2002

I'm certainly not wise but I am old. Grond the Hammer of the Underworld was born in the year of our Lord 1954. I will be 48 in less than a month.

My birthday is available in my user profile BTW.

Rangerdave · Apr 25, 2002

Old Farts Unite

I may be a decade younger than Grond, but I would think I classify as an old fart on this forum. So let me make a smart-alec comment here.

Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, but it does bring experience.

So we Oldies may not be wise but were devious and crafty.
(insert scary laughter here)

RD

Beleg Strongbow · Apr 25, 2002

Re: Old Farts Unite

Yes the average age of people is very young in this forum. In the teens id think it would be.

Úlairi · Apr 26, 2002

Actually Beleg, you would be surprised at how many 'old' people are on this forum. Grond, you have a good thirty to maybe even forty years ahead of you. You are not 'old', you are 'middle-aged'. Experience does come with age, Rangerdave, but so does wisdom and I believe that there is a chance that even you, may be wise. I do believe that Grond is and RD, I think you are too. Some people do not get wise, and there are a few. But I believe that quite a lot of the 'more experienced', 'wiser' or in layman's terms 'older' are wise.

Úlairi · Apr 27, 2002

Looks like the thread has gone quiet.

Rangerdave · Apr 27, 2002

Wisdom does not come from age, it comes from learning from your mistakes. Us old guys just had more time to make more mistake in. thats all.

so in that sense, I guess age does bring wisdom second hand. but the price is a killer

RD

Úlairi · Apr 27, 2002

Originally posted by Rangerdave
Wisdom does not come from age, it comes from learning from your mistakes. Us old guys just had more time to make more mistake in. thats all.

so in that sense, I guess age does bring wisdom second hand. but the price is a killer

RD

This would make a great New Thread wouldn't it RD. 'Does wisdom come from age?' it could be titled. But where to put it? I'm glad that you agree that with age comes wisdom. You guys have had a lot more time to make mistakes (but never Grond! ), which is what is so admirable about you elder people.

Gothmog · Apr 27, 2002

Wisdom does not come with age unless you also have an open mind able to learn from the Many mistakes you will make.

Grond · Apr 27, 2002

What meager bit of wisdom I have is a direct result of learning from my countless mistakes. Ulari, I have made many in my life. The ability to learn from life experiences and one's mistakes is the true pathway to wisdom and common sense.

Úlairi · Apr 28, 2002

That was beautiful Grond. I printed that one off and stuck it on my wall. Perhaps I could send it to a publisher to include it in a book of quotes, although, I'm going to need your real name Grond, or I'll have to take credit for it. Btw, I am being deadly serious so do not think that I am joshing (I love that word), as I am seriously considering sending it off to a publisher.

Grond · Apr 28, 2002

At last Ulari, flattery may be getting you somewhere. It is not a quote, just a statement of fact. For me to take credit for it, would be to plagiarize most of the adult population of our planet. What I said was from my own mind, but I'm sure it's been said thousands, if not millions of times over the millenia. Send it in under your own name.

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