Why couldn't 🧝Elves, Dwarves and 🧙Maiar kill the Nazgul king?

[Greenwood]

Hello all!!

It is great to "see" you, old friend!

 

[baragund]

Hi Grond! Long time no see!

Greenwood's explanation of Glorfindel's prophecy the the "The Nazgul: Mortal or Immortal" thread really clears things up.

Glorfindel was not saying that a man cannot kill the Witch King, but merely that a man would not be the one. See the difference? A man was no less capable of killing the Witch King than a woman, Elf, Dwarf or anything considered to be not a "man". Glorfindel was foreseeing the future and stating that the person who will do the deed happens to not be a man.

It's one of those things that become so obvious once you think about it, but this view makes all of the other issues surrounding the Witch King's death (i.e. was it Merry or Eowyn, magical capabilities of Merry's sword, gender vs. race, etc.) just go away.

 

[Aisteru]

In case nobody knew, the "No man can kill me" thing is a tip of the hat to Macbeth. In that story there is a man so powerful that "no man born of woman" can kill him. He meets his end by a man that was technically not "born" becaue he was cut out of his mothers stomach. a sort of loophole in both accounts. Tolkien as we all know loved Anglo-Saxon mythology and put many parts of it into LOTR.

 

[Mooky87]

This is a good question as it has always made me wonder. Gandalf didn't seem to have much hope when speaking about the Witch King, which always made me wonder why. If the prophecy was that no man could kill him, then why would it be a hopeless cause for Gandlaf unless it meant no male could kill him. Know what I'm saying?

On a side note, I think I'll make myslef dense in front of all of you and risk a question. How was this prophecy made and determined? I have always wondered how it was decided that no man would be able to slay the Witch King.

 

[Aisteru]

I think Gandalf thought it was hopeless cause in an almost sexist way. Until Eoywn the thought of women in war was unheard of. She wasn't even supposed to be in that fight. Also the chances of not only a woman fighting the Witch-King but defeating him we slim to none. But perhaps Gandalf didnt know it meant no male could kill him.


And your other question regard prophecies did not make you seem dense at all. But I think it is just because of what I said in my last post that madeTolkien decide that. Also, this is the Witch-King we're talking about. Second only to Sauron himself. It is logical that no man can kill him.



I'm not sure if that answered your questioned but I tried.



Aisteru

 

[ingolmo]

I don't think 'man' means any living thing. I think it means that the Witch King can only be killed by the destroying of Sauron and the One Ring, because the Wraiths only live through Sauron's will. We discussed this in another thread, It was the thread 'Who 'killed' the Witch King', by Durin's Bane.

 

[Grond]

I don't think 'man' means any living thing. I think it means that the Witch King can only be killed by the destroying of Sauron and the One Ring, because the Wraiths only live through Sauron's will. We discussed this in another thread, It was the thread 'Who 'killed' the Witch King', by Durin's Bane.

So you're saying that Merry stabbing the Witch King in the knee and Eowyn smiting him in the head, did not have any effect on him??

Cheers,

grond

 

[Maerbenn]

Tolkien wrote in a footnote to the letter published as no. 246 in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that the Witch-king was “reduced to impotence”, and a footnote to Appendix A states that the Lord of the Nazgûl “was brought to nothing” in the Battle.