Why did it take less to defeat 🧌trolls in ROTK?

[Firawyn]

I was thinking..(either the second or third tome I saw ROTK ) about trolls. You see. In FOTR it took the ENTIRE fellowship to fell ONE troll, but in ROTK at the siege od Gondor there were the trolls pushing the little things with the orcs in them and the trolls(in armor) busting in the gate, along with the trolls that were swingin' around that big dragon-fire blower-weapon thing. And those trolls came down after a few arrows. How come they died so much quicker? Or am I just nuts? (Anyone who dare say I'm nuts better watch out)

 

[krash8765]

well there was hundreds and hundreds of archers upon Gondor's walls that poured arrows onto the trolls especially because they were moving the seige towers. The fellowship had to bring one down with swords and axes which is much harder because you dont want to get close to a troll!

 

[Starflower]

this should be in the movie forums..... as the cave troll in Moria does not appear in the books at all.

 

[Arvedui]

Moved from Hall of Fire.

 

[aragil]

Not exactly true Starflower- there's a troll who sticks his foot and shoulder into the chamber of Marzubul in the books in Moria (Boromir notches his sword on the arm, then Frodo stabs it in the foot with Sting), and more than one troll who helps bridge the fiery chasms in the second hall, right as the Balrog appears. As for the trolls at Pelannor Fields in the movie, I'll go with Krash. There are way more than 9 Gondorian soldiers per troll in the battle, and the Gondorian soldiers don't fare nearly as well as the Fellowship did in Moria.

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Plus they were different breeds of troll. The cave-trolls were more powerful than the hill-trolls that Sauron used, I think. The ones in armor might have been olog-hai but who knows?

 

[Firawyn]

I see.

Um...what's a olog-ahi?

 

[joxy]

....there's a troll who sticks his foot and shoulder into the chamber of Marzubul in the books in Moria.

This has cropped up before - are you certain the book says it's a troll who does that?!

 

[Bucky]

along with the trolls that were swingin' around that big dragon-fire blower-weapon thing.

It was simply a suked-up battering ram named 'Grond', in honor of the 'Hammer of the Underworld' mace that Morgoth weilded against High Elvin King Fingolfin in the First Age duel.

Yeah, one the Trolls dying, Krash8765 explains it well......

On seeing this thread, I figured people were complaining that PJ had Trolls outside in broad daylight, but don't forget the Olog-Hai Tolkien had in TLOR.....

 

[aragil]

This has cropped up before - are you certain the book says it's a troll who does that?!

I'm certainly certain- and you agreed with me last time it came up. The evidence is the following:
1) Gandalf tentatively identifies a troll after peering out of the chamber, immediately prior to the Fellowship being attacked.
2) Boromir notches his sword on the arm. Given Boromir's prowess in killing orcs it is extremely unlikely that he would notch his sword on an Orc's arm. It is equally unlikely that this would be the Balrog, which was a creature of shadow and flame, not "dark skin of greenish scales".
3) Frodo stabs a flat toeless foot. Orcs are always described as wearing shoes.
4) The blood which comes off of Sting after Frodo stabs the foot is black, like the blood of the Hill Troll which Pippin stabs at the black gates. Likewise the Hill Trolls at the black gates have scaly skin, like the arm which comes through the door in Moria.
5) Right before Frodo is speared, Gandalf again mentions the troll- this time not at all tentatively.
Here is the textual evidence:

from The Bridge of Khazad-dûm:
1) 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. For the moment they are hanging back, but there is something else there. A great cave-troll, I think, or more than one. There is no hope of escape that way.'
2-4) There was a blow on the door that made it quiver; and then it began to grind slowly open, driving back the wedges. A huge arm and shoulder, with a dark skin of greenish scales, was thrust through the widening gap. Then a great, flat, toeless foot was forced through below. There was a dead silence outside.
Boromir leaped forward and hewed at the arm with all his might; but his sword rang, glanced aside, and fell from his shaken hand. The blade was notched.
Suddenly, and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot wrath blaze up in his heart. `The Shire! ' he cried, and springing beside Boromir, he stooped, and stabbed with Sting at the hideous foot. There was a bellow, and the foot jerked back, nearly wrenching Sting from Frodo's arm. Black drops dripped from the blade and smoked on the floor.
4) {From The Black Gate Opens}Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; ... Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.
5) `Now is the time! ' cried Gandalf. `Let us go, before the troll returns!'

IMO that is enough evidence to be quite certain!

An interesting side note on the Olog-hai bit: an old member here (ShagratU) once postulated that all of the Trolls in Lord of the Rings- the cave troll in Moria, the Mountain Trolls at Pelannor, and the Hill Trolls at the Black Gates- are all Olog-hai, and I'm beginning to believe him. Here's some of the evidence:

from The Lord of the Rings, 'The Shadow of the Past':
Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons.

from The Lord of the Rings, 'The Black Gate Opens':
But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands.

from The Lord of the Rings, 'The Field of Cormallen':
The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.

from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F:
But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.

Notice that Appendix F and Shadow of the Past both mention cunning, while Shadow of the Past and The Black Gate Opens both mention the use of weapons. Also, the scaly-skin of the Cave Troll in Moria is shared with the Hill Trolls of Gorgoroth. Finally, the effect of Sauron's fall on the Hill Trolls is reminiscent of what Appendix F says about Sauron's will and the Trolls- note that the two passages use the phrases 'holds them all in sway' and 'the will of Sauron held sway'. Also reminds me of the movie where the Troll poised to kill Aragorn suddenly runs off after Barad-dur falls. Nice touch!

 

[jallan]

However Tolkien’s own illustration of the stone-trolls faced by Bilbo which appears in many editions of The Hobbit show those trolls with scaly skins.

That the trolls in the Battle of the Black Gate are Olog-hai is almost certain. As to the cave-trolls in Moria, there is no way of telling.

 

[aragil]

I'll agree that it's difficult to say with the Moria Cave-troll. However, Hill-Trolls are almost certainly not the only variety of Olog-hai. It is quite probable that the Mountain-trolls who wield Grond at Pelannor were Olog-hai, else their journey to Minas Tirith under the variable dark clouds would have been quite unnerving (for them at any rate).
Also of concern for the cave-troll is how long they had been in Moria. The one at the chamber of Marzubul is spotted with Mordor Uruks, which may be part of a troop of Mordor Uruks which Haldir later says were observed moving towards Moria only a few days before the Fellowship arrived. If that was the case, and these Mordor Orcs brought the cave-troll with them, then it was probably Olog-hai. Alternatively, the troll could have been there since Sauron began 'to people Moria with his creatures' c. 2480. A final thing to consider is the shaft of light coming down to the chamber. According to Hobbit tradition, any sunlight whatsoever will turn a troll to stone- I imagine even sticking arm and shoulder through a door into a sunlit chamber would be dangerous for one of the older trolls, but that is pretty much just speculation on my part.

And speaking of the Hobbit, it is difficult to say what exactly the picture shows. I wouldn't be at all surprised if JRRT did indeed intend for Tom, Bert and Bill to have scaly skin, but unfortunately I can't tell from the illustration. My impression is that it comes from an engraving, but I'm not enough of an artist to know for sure.
In any case, comparison with the Hobbit is a dangerous affair. Bert, Bill, and Tom may have had scaly-skin, but Bert at least also had pockets, a wallet, and all three used boots, forks, knives, and had mastery of language that would have put the supposedly more clever Olog-hai to shame.

 

[jallan]

Aragil posted:

In any case, comparison with the Hobbit is a dangerous affair. Bert, Bill, and Tom may have had scaly-skin, but Bert at least also had pockets, a wallet, and all three used boots, forks, knives, and had mastery of language that would have put the supposedly more clever Olog-hai to shame.

No forks or boots mentioned so far as I can see. Knives of course, but that makes sense.

In The Lord of the Rings no occasion arises where trolls of any kind might be expected to speak. I’d imagine their speaking ability to be at least Uruk-hai level.

On they other hand while the three trolls in The Hobbit use language well enough for their needs they don’t seem to be especially intelligent

Evil giants and ogres and trolls in traditional fairy stories generally are incredibly stupid and easily duped which is part of the fun of such tales: “Gee,” says puss, “I bet you can’t turn into something small like a mouse.”

Stupid, stupid ogre-creature!

Probably an Olog woudn’t fall for such silliness.

 

[aragil]

Probably an Olog woudn’t fall for such silliness.

I imagine an Olog would squish you flat long before you got the chance to riddle it! "... filled with the evil will of their master".

Fair enough about the Hobbit Trolls- although when Thorin & co. found the trail it was described as being made by "troll's stony boots" or some such. I definitely think that if The Hobbit had been written after tLotR (or had not been intended for a younger audience), those Trolls would have spoke and behaved slightly differently, even if the end result would be the same.

 

[jallan]

Aragil posted:

Fair enough about the Hobbit Trolls- although when Thorin & co. found the trail it was described as being made by "troll's stony boots" or some such.

I did indeed miss that.

I wonder what “stony boots” actually are? Ulmo supposedly wore stone shoes.

I definitely think that if The Hobbit had been written after tLotR (or had not been intended for a younger audience), those Trolls would have spoke and behaved slightly differently, even if the end result would be the same.

Agreed on everything. The accent would probably have been at least toned down to Saruman Uruk-hai level.