But it was Duncan Idaho who said that. I guess Halleck must have been present?All of the people who were close to Duke Leto, such as Thufir Hawat, Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck knew that Leto "suspected" the Lady Jessica of treatchury (of course, Leto didn't actually believe that she was a traitor, but the only person he told about that was Paul). If you recall, there's a scene after the big banquet that Leto hosts where Gurney Halleck comes back drunk and is making a disturbance. When Jessica tells him to drink coffee, he says, more or less
"I don't take orders from a **** Harkonen spy"
Oops. 🤦♀️But it was Duncan Idaho who said that. I guess Halleck must have been present?
Anyway, I found a text online at archive.org which I'll peruse at some point.
Fair point. I just wish it was cemented in my mind when this was established. Also, when did he swear vengeance? Was it before or after he thought she was dead? 😕Oops. 🤦♀️
Either way, I'm pretty sure everybody close to Leto knew about his suspicion of Jessica. He tried to make it as public as possible so as to throw off the Harkonens, if I remember correctly.
Yes, that does ring a bell, now that you mention it. Now that I've looked at the text file I remember the scene and surprised I'd forgotten it. Or perhaps I simply confused Halleck and Hawat 😐If I remember correctly, Gurney swore vengeance when he was taken in by the smugglers. He had a whole conversation with Tuek about it. Although maybe he was swearing vengeance on Feyd Rautha, not Jessica. Or maybe both. It's been a while since I last re-read the book. I don't think he ever thought that Jessica was dead (although he probably hoped for it).
Had Feyd even shown up at the point where Gurney has this discussion with Tuek? I thought Feyd got involved with Arrakis later in the story---but, like you, I haven't read the book in quite a while. Doesn't really matter for purposes of this thread!If I remember correctly, Gurney swore vengeance when he was taken in by the smugglers. He had a whole conversation with Tuek about it. Although maybe he was swearing vengeance on Feyd Rautha, not Jessica. Or maybe both. It's been a while since I last re-read the book. I don't think he ever thought that Jessica was dead (although he probably hoped for it).
Finally finished the book (well, before the Appendices) and, I dunno, it was kind of a mixed bag for me, at best (spoiler-filled impressions and rantings follow).
The pace lagged in, especially in the middle, saturated with what seemed to me a lot of mystical hooey and esoteric gobbledygook. There also seem to be some false starts and plot threads that don't go anywhere....
Anyway, rant over. Overall, I'm a bit underwhelmed and I don't think Dune is a world I'm going to want to revisit again.
I'm honestly not sure at this point. Maybe it was Rabban, not Feyd. I'm not very good at remembering the details, unfortunately. 😕 I'll probably re-listen to the audiobook to refresh my knowledge (after I finish the LOTR audiobooks).Had Feyd even shown up at the point where Gurney has this discussion with Tuek? I thought Feyd got involved with Arrakis later in the story---but, like you, I haven't read the book in quite a while. Doesn't really matter for purposes of this thread!
Interesting review. I can understand some of your points, and although I like Dune, it definitely isn't for everyone.Finally finished the book (well, before the Appendices) and, I dunno, it was kind of a mixed bag for me, at best (spoiler-filled impressions and rantings follow).
The pace lagged in, especially in the middle, saturated with what seemed to me a lot of mystical hooey and esoteric gobbledygook. There also seem to be some false starts and plot threads that don't go anywhere. I'm particularly thinking first of Gurney Hallecks's conversation with Staban Tuek, a character who says stuff that seems like it might be important later, but the character thereafter never shows up again. Yes, he may show up in the sequels, but I don't think this was a certainty at the time of the book's publication. Also, during this convo, Gurney tells Tuek he heard from Thulfir Hawat that Jessica is the traitor. This suddenly turns into a vendetta against Jessica, but, again, I don't feel like it is sufficiently set up (yes, I'm revisiting this plot point). I looked through the text file to confirm this. Halleck never vows vengeance against Jessica that I could find. Tuek even suggests it's not her he wants, to which Halleck even concedes that "Hawat made a few mistakes." Also, later, when Gurney thinks, after reuniting with Paul, "The she-witch alive! The one I swore vengeance against, alive!" One, again, no, this never happens; and two, if he did swear vengeance was it before he thought she was dead or after? Anyway, whatever the case, it comes to precisely nothing. Gurney tries to kill Jessica but is told by Paul that she's not the traitor. And that's the end of it, leading me to believe that the murder attempt is just there pad out the word count. If you took this out of the story, it would have changed nothing. It is Hawat who swears vengeance against Jessica but this too comes to nothing, as does the (cartoonishly evil) Baron Harkonnen's use of both it and Hawat himself. Furthermore, neither Halleck nor Hawat use the slightest bit of reason when suspecting Jessica. Why even introduces this plot point?
I couldn't really connect with the characters. Overall, the tone is overly dour with few if any moments of comic relief or even attempts at humor or lightheartedness. Just a lot of hifalutin speeches. I felt as if any of the main characters died I wouldn't care. But, of course, Paul Atreides being a kind of superman and a messianic figure (not to mention his mother Jessica becoming a super-woman) make that a dubious prospect, even if the text hints at his dying. It all got tiresome after a while and the text trying to describe his incredible awesomeness as a negative didn't really work for me either. Also, the ending of the book was odd to say the least. What a strange final sentence.
There isn't much science to speak of in this science fiction milestone. The idea of a desert planet is still weird to me. Also, if it doesn't rain, where does the water come from, especially the reservoir the Fremen are filling for the intention of making the planet able to support abundant greenery (and aren't they depriving other life forms of it)? Water evaporates. That which goes up must eventually come down. The Fremen might recycles bodies for their water but they cannot reclaim all the water that exists. And the worms? Where does their great mass come from? Why is water an anathema to them? Wouldn't that include water in the bodies of those who get swallowed? I cannot begin to wrap my mind around the ecology of this place.
Anyway, rant over. Overall, I'm a bit underwhelmed and I don't think Dune is a world I'm going to want to revisit again.
Well, I'm no planetologist, but I'm pretty sure that although Arrakis doesn't have rain they do have dew in the morning (the Fremen set up moisture traps to catch said dew, and the people who live in Arrakkeen sweep the morning flowers with scythe-like devices to gather the moisture that settles on them). I guess this could potentially form a kind of water cycle, with dew instead of rain? I think it's also safe to assume that CHOAM imports water to Arrakken and the other cities, and we know that Fremen come there sometimes, so maybe they buy water from there? Also, the polar caps have frozen water on them, though I can't remember if it's obtainable. We also know that there is a lot of water underground in Arrakkis, but the Little Makers block it off whenever you try to make a well (although Fremen have figured out how to make sip-wells where you can drink said water). It's also possible that pre-spice masses (like the one that killed Kynes) also produce some water, though that's just a wild hypothesis on my part.There isn't much science to speak of in this science fiction milestone. The idea of a desert planet is still weird to me. Also, if it doesn't rain, where does the water come from, especially the reservoir the Fremen are filling for the intention of making the planet able to support abundant greenery (and aren't they depriving other life forms of it)? Water evaporates. That which goes up must eventually come down. The Fremen might recycles bodies for their water but they cannot reclaim all the water that exists. And the worms? Where does their great mass come from? Why is water an anathema to them? Wouldn't that include water in the bodies of those who get swallowed? I cannot begin to wrap my mind around the ecology of this place.
I dunno. It feels like there is no real story arc for Paul. Unless it's that he starts out great and transitions into super-amazing. Same with his sister, Alia. No arc needed. Just have some mumbo jumbo occur and BAM, she's born a prodigy.It's a "Messianic" story, which do tend to be a little *ahem* (wait for it)....messy. 😄
I only read it once, and I recall I [overall] liked it.
I will probably re-read it at some point in the next year or two.
It will be interesting to learn what my reaction is to it now almost 50 years** later.
**Good heavens... 50 years! When did that happen???!! 😬
Well, if you look at Gurney's backstory, his sister was killed by Harkonnens, and he himself was their slave for a long time and was beaten with an inkvine by Rabban or Feyd (I can't remember which). If you're a weirdo like me who reads the appendices, they say that the inkvine leaves a very painful wound, almost as painful as the Gom Jabbar. So he REALLY wants revenge. I can understand why you're frustrated by that kind of stuff if you like action more, though. We all have our own tastes.Yes, I remember the dew traps now, but it's still hard to grasp where that moisture would be coming from.
Also, another little rant about the book (SPOILER WARNING), the book ends with a duel between Paul and Feyd (which, big surprise, Paul wins), but before the duel Halleck grumbles and whines that he was "promised a Harkonnen" to kill and it takes him a while to shut up about it. There are examples like that throughout the book that tried my patience. Overall, it feels like there is more talk than action.
There's a lot more about Aliah in Dune Messiah. I think she does have a small character arc though, because the first time we see her she feels shy and is embarrassed that she's an "abomination", and next time we see her she's sassing the Baron and leading the Fremen that were left behind in the sietch. I'm no expert on character arcs, though.I dunno. It feels like there is no real story arc for Paul. Unless it's that he starts out great and transitions into super-amazing. Same with his sister, Alia. No arc needed. Just have some mumbo jumbo occur and BAM, she's born a prodigy.
I entered the question on Google and among other hits (including the tiresome AI) there is at least one Reddit thread about it.But why did Tolkien hate it?
The author of Dune is (Frank Herbert)
I have never read or seen a Dune movie, or played a Dune game. But is there a reason for it? I dont watch YouTube clickbaits. But i wonder if anyone here is an expert on it?
The actual words in my copy of the book is "Hawat made few mistakes" which is very different in meaning, and earlier in that chapter Halleck had said "Thufir Hawat suspected the Lady Jessica", although I couldn't find a conversation of Hawat telling Halleck of his suspicion. But that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened off stage so to speak, or Halleck could have inferred it. Could we not also think the same of Halleck's vow of vengeance? If it's not recorded in the book before Halleck announces it late in the story, doesn't mean he couldn't have made such a vow given his suspicion. But isn't this quibbling over details?Tuek even suggests it's not her he wants, to which Halleck even concedes that "Hawat made a few mistakes."
Welcome to any fandom of any movie, book, or other entertainment vehicle ever done.But isn't this quibbling over details?
Hey, that video guy made the same point I did up in post #8. That's good for my ego.This video
It is a very undiscerning (yet self-serving) Peej who saw the possibility, nay, certainty, of pipeweed and spice as similar substances having similar effects.I've just finished watching 'The Children of Dune' miniseries and reading through this thread I wondered if JRR Tolkien had meant that it was the planet Dune, Arrakis, that he disliked and not the actual book in itself. And yet, was there a relationship between the Great Were-Worms of Middle Earth and Dune's Sandworms? If so maybe Tolkien disliked the possibility of pipe-weed and spice being seen as similar substances having similar effects. Of course the more discerning reader knows that toking tobacco is not quiet the same as munching on a psychotropic melange.
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