Are you a 🧝Feanor or Finrod person?

[Inderjit S]

Just a question, what kind of character do you prefer? A character with flaws a.l.a Feanor, with some evil tucked inside or a pefect, great *Yawn* Finrod type character? Personally, I love the flawed/evil good guys, like say 'Angel' (From 'Buffy' and 'Angel') and Feanor, rather then the boring predictable good guys, such as Superman or Finrod. What do you think?

 

[Confusticated]

As far as which one I like to read about most, they are even.

As much as I am moved by Feanor rebelling against the Valar and shutting his door in the face of the most mighty being in Arda, Finrod is closer to my heart because I like him as a person. Feanor's selfishness disgusts me.

Ambarto: need I say more?

 

[Niniel]

I like Finrod better as a person, but Fëanor is the cause of more interesting reading matter (although Finrod did some great things too, that are worth reading).

 

[Idril]

Originally posted by Nóm
As much as I am moved by Feanor rebelling against the Valar and shutting his door in the face of the most mighty being in Arda

Argh....Crikey, that sounds a bit like me We tend to like a spot of 'badness' in a person (elf or man), I guess because it's more human like - more like us. But Feanor went too far, and dragged his family and people down with him - I actually think he went mad.
I prefer Finrod, he is the sort of person we aspire to be, honest and loyal to death. It's a shame, in being a good guy, you get labeled 'boring'.

 

[Eriol]

GO, BORING!

Yep, I'm all for boring... it's much more fun to be boring .

I think the boring guys have more fun. I'm definitely a Finrod person. I think Finrod was happier when he found Men than Fëanor when making the Silmarils. And that's comparing Finrod with Fëanor's best side... I'm CERTAIN that Finrod was happier at that moment than Fëanor when shutting the door in Morgoth's face.

(It's a great moment, no doubt ).

Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.

 

[Confusticated]

Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.

I was reminded of this too.

I do not think Finrod was a boring person at all, maybe just less dramatic to read about.

Certainly he was an intellectual, and enjoyed his wanderings. He had a good heart, and was kind and wise. That is my kind of guy, rather than some hot-headed, paranoid, kin-slaying, very immature for age, and overly-proud craftsman. Feanor has admirable traits but they are out-weighed in my opinion, by these disasterous faults.

 

[Idril]

Originally posted by Nóm
hot-headed, paranoid, kin-slaying, very immature for age, and overly-proud craftsman

Sounds like what is referred to as 'artistic temperament' doesn't it.

 

[Inderjit S]

It's a shame, in being a good guy, you get labeled 'boring'.

I' not saying GOOD guys were boring, just perfect ones. Fingon was good and he wasn't boring. I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with?

 

[Confusticated]

Sounds like what is referred to as 'artistic temperament' doesn't it.

Yes. I suppose he was quite the artisan with that Sword at Alqualonde too.

I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with?

Well, I didn't answer the question in that context. If so, I would want neither, as Feanor is obviously a bad choice, and Finrod is too good, doesn't deserve to be inflicted with me.


But Inderjit, I wouldn't say Finrod was perfect. I am sure wasn't without mistakes, it is just that any mistakes made by him must have had the result of a better thing not being, rather than a horrid thing happening as a direct result.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
I' not saying GOOD guys were boring, just perfect ones. Fingon was good and he wasn't boring. I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with?

You're right, I wouldn't want a flawless partner either. Hey, wasn't disobeying the Valar a flaw of Finrod's and a sign of his imperfection?
And I wouldn't want to have a partner who is TOO flawed either, nor am I too psyched about the idea of marrying or at least condoning a murderer's actions (however "justified" the cause and circumstances may be, and they weren't justified at all IMO).

Sure, I enjoy reading about Fëanor. I should perhaps mention that I also enjoy reading Thomas Harris' novels about Hannibal Lecter.

 

[Confusticated]

Fingolfin and Finarfin went along because they did not want to be sundered from their people or leave them to the rash counsels of Feanor. Finrod spoke against Feanor earlier, so I think it is fair to assume that he went along for the same reason his father and uncle Fingolfin did. The Valar did not command the Noldor to remain in Valinor, only counseled against leaving as Feanor thought they should.

I wouldn't say that doing this was a flaw on Finrod's part.
I think if Finrod made any mistake it was not being active enough in trying to turn back more people when Finarfin did (though we can't be sure he didn't do this) or having gone further out of his way as a diplomat in Beleriand than what we are told he did. He may have had the ability more so than any others to have united the Noldor and even the Sindar beyond a doubt. Then again, maybe not.

Even if those things are true I am not sure it qualifies as a flaw or mistake, and this the worst I can say of Finrod.

 

[Zale]

Even though it is not good to blindly accept authority without questioning it, as Feanor did, I think he went too far in allowing his rage to blind him to sense, and when he refused to give the Silmarils to Yavanna to restore the Two Trees, he committed a terrible crime against all the world.

 

[YayGollum]

I knew this Inderjit S person would be cool as soon as I saw his first post. Now those are some cool choices on that poll! I had to go with Feanor. Of course! Look at the cool book he started! Look at what this Finrod person wouldn't have gotten famous for if it wasn't for Feanor! Yes, the Finrod types are way too achingly boring for me. Someone name one flaw that the guy had. Maybe I'll find out that he's not so boring. I don't know.

 

[Inderjit S]

..............

Ambarto: need I say more?

Feanor's refusal to allow U/Ambarto to stay in Aman was wise. Amras had sworn a oath, which would haunt him unless he succeeded in re-gaining the Silmaril’s. If Amras had stayed in Aman maybe he would've tainted it (As Maglor feared him and Maedhros would) and the 'everlasting darkness' would forever be upon him. he brought it upon himself, Feanor never forced him to swear it, him and his brothers leapt up to their fathers side.

I think he went too far in allowing his rage to blind him to sense, and when he refused to give the Silmarils to Yavanna to restore the Two Trees, he committed a terrible crime against all the world.

Aman and the world are not the same thing. How would the 'world' as in Arda itself benefit from the saving of the Trees? In fact it benefited from Feanor's actions, as Myths Transformed points out:

Myths Transformed; HoME 12

He (Manwe)must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking himto a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised
to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

So Feanor's subsequent actions benefited arda and allowed for he 'music' and Arda's ultimate fate under Eru to take place.

Remember Eru's words to the Ainur before they left for Arda:

and thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the scret thoughts of your mind and wilt pervieve that they are but a part of the whole and a tributary to it's glory

Ainulindale; Published Silmairillion

So oft from evil good will come, and this was the case of Feanor, as Namo foretold to the Valar when decreeing the marriage of Finwe to Indis in the Statue.

When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words . in that hour ye shall not say that the statue of Justice hath born fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall wigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor groweth dim

He

 

[Confusticated]

Feanor's refusal to allow U/Ambarto to stay in Aman was wise.

I guess I did need to say more. I was refering to the way he reacted to the death. Hiding dismay, playing it off as though he ment to do it, or didn't care at all that his son was dead.

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking himto a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

Absolutely. I had reached this conclusion before I read it. The Flight of the Noldor was essential to all the Children of Iluvatar, and even to all that was good... to Arda itself.

But that isn't the only reason this may not have been a crime against the world. The light of the Trees was for everyone, and Feanor had taken some and used as he wished. I think it was moraly rotten of Feanor to deny the light of these when it might have been used to fix the Trees, but as I see it, the jewels were his. I posted this in the previous chapter discussion, but Ill repeat here now: Had the jewels rightfully belonged to any other than Feanor, the Valar could have demanded them, as his withholding them would have been theft.

But even though I think it was morally wrong, he distrusted the Valar so I do not blame him. I understand. Morgoth fooled some of the Valar, and deceived much of the Noldor, and it is a sad thing that these lies got to Feanor but it is no wonder, even though I think the guy was already asking for trouble. Even while Miriel lived she had to restrain Feanor, and he was resentful of the slightest opposition. The guy was, even if not until later on, paranoid. I think the Valar failed him.

All the same he was selfish and too prideful. One does not have to like a person to forgive him, enjoy hearing about his actions, or even admire some of them or some of his personality traits.
I know a lot of people (and especially at one site ) either love Feanor and dislike Finrod, or love Finrod and Hate Feanor, but it is no so with everyone. I am a Feanor person too, I'll argue for him being a victim of Morgoth, but he was also a victim of his own jealous and prideful nature.

Should never have left the first page.

 

[Miguel]

Finrod is to be loved. If films were made, the part were he finds men for the first time and learns of their troubles would make a pretty epic and reflexive scene if done well.

Is not that i hate Fëanor, he's a character that suffers greatly and he's bound to be misunderstood by many but he just went off the rails.

 

[Ron Simpson]

As amply demonstrated above, the whole thing smacks of pre-ordainment by Eru Illuvator. Could the whole Silmaril & rebellion thing have turned out in any other way than it did ? Of course not! The whole thing is an 'Eru set-up', and everyone was given their roles to play - Feanor & Melkor alike. And all roles were played out to further Eru’s long, long, long, long-term master plans. People may argue for free will, but ONLY Feanor (bar none) could ever have made the Silmarils and that skill was in-born - but alas, so was his hot-headedness - and so the stage was set. (i.e. Eru gave him the gift and the flaw !) Feanor, et al were merely pawns on a board. So, what’s to love or hate in a ‘scripted’ pre-ordained pawn? The only sentiment that comes to mind is pity...

 

[Miguel]

As amply demonstrated above, the whole thing smacks of pre-ordainment by Eru Illuvator. Could the whole Silmaril & rebellion thing have turned out in any other way than it did ? Of course not! The whole thing is an 'Eru set-up', and everyone was given their roles to play - Feanor & Melkor alike. And all roles were played out to further Eru’s long, long, long, long-term master plans. People may argue for free will, but ONLY Feanor (bar none) could ever have made the Silmarils and that skill was in-born - but alas, so was his hot-headedness - and so the stage was set. (i.e. Eru gave him the gift and the flaw !) Feanor, et al were merely pawns on a board. So, what’s to love or hate in a ‘scripted’ pre-ordained pawn? The only sentiment that comes to mind is pity...

aurë entuluva

 

[Elthir]

For myself, I believe in free will within Tolkien's world, even for the Quendi.

This discussion often enough turns into opinions regarding the problem of evil in general, or how Iluvatar (God) can know the world's history without determining it -- CS Lewis attempts his explanation of the latter in his book Mere Christianity, and probably elsewhere. Of course I'm not saying Lewis "solved" either question (!), but Tolkien does appear to stamp that Iluvatar is "outside time", and a section of Tolkien's poem, Mythopoeia, reads:


"(…)
In Paradise perchance the eye may stray
from gazing upon everlasting Day
to see the day illumined, and renew
from mirrored truth the likeness of the True.
Then looking on the Blessed Land 'twill see
that all is as it is, and yet made free:
Salvation changes not, nor yet destroys,
garden nor gardener, children nor their toys.
Evil it will not see, for evil lies
not in God's picture but in crooked eyes,
not in the source but in malicious choice,
and not in sound but in the tuneless voice.
In Paradise they look no more awry;
and though they make anew, they make no lie.
Be sure they still will make, not being dead,
and poets shall have flames upon their head,
and harps whereon their faultless fingers fall:
there each shall choose for ever from the All."

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

It's the eternal problem with theodicies. I've mentioned it before, but I'll repeat Northrop Frye's comment about "Paradise Lost":

God knew that Adam would fall, but did not compel him to do so, and on that basis he disclaims legal responsibility. This argument is so bad that Milton, if he was trying to escape refutation, did well to ascribe it to God.