Did the 🧙blue wizards help defeat 👁️Sauron?

[morgoth145]

i was wondering if the blue wizards had accomplished anything as for defeating Sauron.
and if they left middle earth when Gandalf did.
if anyone knows anything about this, please answer.

morgoth145

 

[Thorin]

There isn't much about the Blue Wizards and Tolkien himself said that what they did has pretty much been lost to lore. They are rumored to have moved far east beyond the sea of Rhun and abandoned the quest the 5 wizards were sent to Middle Earth to do. Whether they went back to Valinor is not recorded anywhere.

Unfinished Tales mentions them in a little more detail, but not much.

I'm sure you can find many more threads on here about that.

 

[Elthir]

Tolkien had various things to say about: '... others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales' Of the Rings of Power


And to try to arrange some more specific things in some chronological order (emphasis on try)...



1954 Istari essay (Unfinished Tales): number of order unknown -- two wizards came clad in Sea-blue, little known of them -- no names in the West save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards' -- passed into East with Saruman but never returned -- whether remained in the East pursuing their purpose, or perished, or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not known.

The Lord of the Rings 1954-55

In The Lord of the Rings the Istari were said to have appeared in Middle-earth when maybe a thousand years of the Third Age had passed. The Istari need not have arrived all together, on the same exact ship I mean, but I think the implication is that they came in this general time at least -- this will be notable compared to a very late idea Tolkien was at least thinking about.

A hard to date, brief and hasty sketch

Quenya names appear, Alatar and Pallando -- this dates from sometime after the completion of The Lord of the Rings.

An alliterative verse


This verse mentions of the five that came from a far country, only one retuned.

1958 letter 211

Tolkien -- doesn't know colours (doubts they had distinctive colours) -- doesn't know anything clearly about the 'other two' -- thinks they went to distant land, fears they failed, and suspects they were founders or beginners or secret cults and magic traditions outlasting Sauron's fall.

A late text

Tolkien here muses on the success of the other two: 'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' (and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600). And... [they] '... must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.' According to this late note their names are Morinehtar and Romestamo (or Rome(n)star).

another late note

'no names are recorded for the two wizards'

But compare with yet another passage, similarly dated very late (probably 1972)... 'Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom. Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South.' (published in Unfinished Tales)

It is difficult to know if this note came before, or after, these other two late notes! but in my opinion this one seems to state that all the Istari in question came at generally the same time (at a crucial moment), rather than two wizards coming in SA 1600 -- well before Gandalf! Again, keeping in mind, in any case, what was published by Tolkien himself in The Lord of the Rings.


That's not everything, but anyway I can't find a reference (yet) to these wizards being blue written after Tolkien says he doesn't know the colours. If not, are they even necessarily the Blue Wizards?

:*D

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I always found this subject and others very interesting, this is the history of the Istari and when they were chosen to go to M.E.:

At about

TA 1000, Manwë summoned a council of the Valar to send three messengers to Middle-earth. Two Maiar came, Curumo (Curunir or Saruman) sent by Aulë, and (Morinehtar) Alatar, sent by Oromë. Manwë asked where Olórin was, and he came, after returning from a journey. Manwë asked Olórin (Gandalf) if he would go as the third messenger. Olórin said that he was too weak, and he was afraid of Sauron. Manwë said that that was all the more reason to go, and that he commanded Olórin to go as the third. Then Varda said "Not as the third." Yavanna begged Curumo to take (Radagast) Aiwendil, and Alatar took (Rómestámo), Pallando as a friend. They were forbidden to dominate the peoples of Middle-earth or to match Sauron's power with power. When Saruman, the greatest of the Wizards, disobeyed this injunction, he was cast from the order and banished from Valinor. At the end of the Third Age the Istari passed from sight, with the fall of Sauron their work was done. Gandalf passed over Sea with the Last Riding of the Keepers of the Rings. Of the other surviving Istari, Saruman was cut in the throat by Grima Wormtongue who was then slain by Hobbit arrows. Upon his death Saruman's spirit looked to the West, but was blown away. Saruman was banished from the order and Valinor anyway unless he had repented his acts which he never did before his death or before Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and Bilbo set out for the Grey Havens. Radagast may have chosen to go to the Grey Havens or chosen to stay in Middle-earth. His fate is unknown but as he was already immortal of the race of the Maia he would ultimately be forced to leave Middle-Earth. The Blue Wizards went east before the War of the Ring, and whether they played a part in the events of the war is unclear. According to Tolkien's letters they may have formed cults for magic worship and practice among the Easterlings.

The reason they're called the Blue Wizards (though I don't have a source for it from any actual literature) and possible fate:

Upon arrival in Middle-earth, Alatar and Pallando were dressed in robes of sea-blue. Due to this, they were called the

Blue Wizards (or Ithryn Luin, in Sindarin). With Saruman, they travelled east in an attempt to help free the last Men of Númenor, who were now Haradrim and Easterlings. Later, Saruman came back to the west alone. However, Alatar and Pallando were never seen again, and their ultimate fate, and whether or not they failed their mission, is unknown.

source link: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Istari

 

[Elthir]

I always found this subject and others very interesting, this is the history of the Istari and when they were chosen to go to M.E.:

IF I recall correctly, that history (referred to in the part I underlined) is taken from what I called above: 'a hard to date, brief and hasty sketch' in which the Quenya names Alatar and Pallando appear, which as I say, dates from sometime after the completion of The Lord of the Rings.

Of course that text is fuller than just having the names appear (as noted by the information you quoted), and as we see from a wider range of texts, there is another, later account, in which the names differ in any case (Tolkien may not have had the earlier account at hand when he invented the later names -- meaning he may not have had the earlier text in which the names Alatar and Pallando had already been invented, and so invented new names).

The reason they're called the Blue Wizards (though I don't have a source for it from any actual literature) and possible fate:

I noted the source in the thread above -- but also the interesting information from a letter dated around four years after this source, in which Tolkien states that he doesn't know the colours, and doubts they had distinctive colours.

After that he appears to refer to them as the 'other two' instead of the Blue Wizards (again as far as I know at the moment anyway).

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Some people believe that they started cults or groups, the most powerful being the kingdom of Nardor.

 

[Imagineer]

:waves. just in :

Radagast the brown couldn't even tell the Ents where their wives went off to so hastily. Tom Bombadil couldn't give Gandalf a head's up?

The good Professor left plenty of loose ends dangling for the reader to wonder how the heck things came to be and what was to follow.

The Blue Wizards could make a great book.

 

[Bucky]

Some people believe that they started cults or groups, the most powerful being the kingdom of Nardor.

Nardor? I can't recall ever hearing of such a place in 30 readings over 45 years come this Spring...... :*confused:

Fanfict?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I was curious too, I looked on the LOTR Wiki and Encyclopedia of Arda and couldn't find anything on Nardor

 

[Eledhwen]

Re: Galin's post. It is not incongruous for the blue wizards to be known by more than one set of names. Gandalf had many, depending on who was doing the naming.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Nardor? I can't recall ever hearing of such a place in 30 readings over 45 years come this Spring...... :*confused:

Yeah apparently a fanfict project about another remant of Non-Elendili Numenor that established a kingdom in the far south.

 

[Elthir]

Re: Galin's post. It is not incongruous for the blue wizards to be known by more than one set of names. Gandalf had many, depending on who was doing the naming.

Yes but -- Alatar, Pallando, Morinehtar, Romestar, Romestamo -- are all Quenya, which to my mind suggests that they are external variations (Tolkien trying to come up with a Quenya name for each wizard), instead of internal variations, like the names of Gandalf in various languages, from various places.


There's also a notable gap in years between the text with the first two names (above) -- and the last three, and Christopher Tolkien implies that his father possibly could not find the earlier text -- which might mean he couldn't remember the earlier names, and so he invented new ones.


Anyway I can't think of any great reason to think they were all meant to be imagined as internal -- they all exist, yes, but so do plenty of names with variations exist on paper in Tolkien's unpublished draft material.

 

[Imagineer]

It does rather invite the writing of a short story, what?

The wizards were made of music, the Sil tells us.

Those that came to Middle Earth, that we know of, were each assigned a color, or perhaps had the privalage to choose their own

Who knows how many colored wizards were running about the homeland.

The idea is taunting me to write something after studying more on the subject.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

There have been many writings on the Blue Wizards. Trust me, many fans have written stories speculating on their fate. Some even suggest if it weren't for them, then Sauron would have destroyed Gondor long before Aragorn came into being.