Goblins/🧌Orcs

[BeornTheBear]

I've been wondering for a while, is there any difference between Goblins and Orcs? In The Hobbit he says Goblins but he also talks about Orcs as if they are different.

 

[Bucky]

'Goblins' seems to be the term that Hobbits used; nothing more or less.

Of course, there is the line in The Hobbit that the Grey Mountains are "full of Goblins, Hob-Goblins & Orcs of every discription" if I recall correctly, spoken by Gandalf.

But, that's written before The Lord of the Rings & the whole mythology was in place.

Uruks, Uruk-Hai & Orcs themselves is another subject...

I know there's a rather extensive thread around here on the subject, about 50 pages, called; 'Uruks VS. Uruk-Hai' that is rather in depth. I'm sure you can find it in the archives if you want to.

If you don't, I can give you the quick cliff notes version. ;*)

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

'Goblins' seems to be the term that Hobbits used; nothing more or less.

Of course, there is the line in The Hobbit that the Grey Mountains are "full of Goblins, Hob-Goblins & Orcs of every discription" if I recall correctly, spoken by Gandalf.

But, that's written before The Lord of the Rings & the whole mythology was in place.

Uruks, Uruk-Hai & Orcs themselves is another subject...

I know there's a rather extensive thread around here on the subject, about 50 pages, called; 'Uruks VS. Uruk-Hai' that is rather in depth. I'm sure you can find it in the archives if you want to.

If you don't, I can give you the quick cliff notes version. ;*)

I remember that thread, I'd forgotten about it. I know I haven't been here as long as you Bucky but wow I still remember TTF when it was VERY VERY active...

 

[Elthir]

'Goblins' seems to be the term that Hobbits used; nothing more or less.

Actually the Hobbits used orc. The word goblin is merely a translation, like 'Elves' for Quendi or Eldar.

In answer to BeorntheBear (welcome) there is no difference at all between an orc and a 'goblin' :*)

 

[Bucky]

Okay, languages are not my thing at all..

Let me say this:

Hobbits 'call' Orcs "goblins" in the text apparently.

Check it out.

 

[Elthir]

Okay, languages are not my thing at all..

Let me say this:

Hobbits 'call' Orcs "goblins" in the text apparently.

Check it out.

But what's the reason to single out Hobbits here?

There's a seemingly popular idea that Hobbits have a special word -- a word besides orc -- for orcs, but this is not so.

 

[Bucky]

Read the text...

In TLOR, several times, the Hobbits refer to orcs as "goblins". Must I find it?

It's really not worth my time & effort over something so trivial, but I definitely recall in 30+ readings that it's the Hobbits who say it, around Moria.

So, I'm not 'singling out' ~ Like I'm racist against Hobbits, lol.

 

[Elthir]

Read the text... In TLOR, several times, the Hobbits refer to orcs as "goblins". Must I find it?

What I haven't found in the text of The Lord of the Rings is a pattern of 'goblin' being used in translation, only, or even predominantly, when Hobbits speak or think, instead of orc.

In translation Gimli uses the word, or Gamling with 'goblin-men' for example, and it's also employed in general narration (even some of Saruman's lot are referred to as 'goblin-soldiers' at one point). I don't think even more than one instance of 'goblin' with respect to a Hobbit speaking (or thinking) will establish a patten to support that the Hobbits are using a special word.

It's really not worth my time & effort over something so trivial, but I definitely recall in 30+ readings that it's the Hobbits who say it, around Moria. So, I'm not 'singling out' ~ Like I'm racist against Hobbits, lol.

Gimli says it after the Fellowship leaves Moria, if that's what you're remembering.

 

[Troll]

Goblins, Orcs, and whatever else is in that family tree are all probably derived from the same source, and all are probably genetically compatible with each other. The differences are probably mainly social and organizational. I get the feeling that goblins are more likely to be part of semi-nomadic small groups, doing their own thing in the wilds of Middle-Earth, whereas Orcs are more likely to be found in settlements serving an Enemy of some description. I could be way off-base, though.

 

[Elthir]

Goblins, Orcs, and whatever else is in that family tree are all probably derived from the same source, and all are probably genetically compatible with each other. The differences are probably mainly social and organizational. I get the feeling that goblins are more likely to be part of semi-nomadic small groups, doing their own thing in the wilds of Middle-Earth, whereas Orcs are more likely to be found in settlements serving an Enemy of some description. I could be way off-base, though.

I must agree, somewhat, with your last statement here ;*)


There is no difference whatsoever between an orc and a 'goblin' -- not in size (a popular opinion), nor in any social sense, including where they live. There are, of course, different kinds of orcs, but they are all goblins.


And Bucky: in another thread you noted that you think the term goblin is just Hobbit 'slang' (although you add an 'except' and post a paraphrase of a quote from The Hobbit and 'ask' Tolkien to explain it).

That's what I refer to, and disagree with, when I say you are singling out Hobbts here.

 

[Bard the Bowman]

Yes, Troll is completely wrong. I hope this quote from the Fellowship of the Ring will help clear things up. It is Gimli speaking, and I think that we can trust him on these matters. Would everyone agree Gimli is an expert when it comes to goblins and orcs?

"Not a sound but the wind,' he said. 'There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria."

There you have it. No more explanation needed.

 

[Bucky]

Wow, I'm wrong.. :*eek:

;*)

I stand corrected.

Boy, that's not so hard to do.

 

[Elthir]

Wow, I'm wrong.. :*eek:

;*)

I stand corrected.

Boy, that's not so hard to do.

But are you here actually stating that you are wrong about 'goblin' being Hobbit-slang, or simply generally illustrating how this might be easily done, if you were wrong?

;*)

Would everyone agree Gimli is an expert when it comes to goblins and orcs?

"Not a sound but the wind,' he said. 'There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria."

There you have it. No more explanation needed.

For myself, I don't think we really need any in-story examples to answer this question. Rather, just one or two slightly different types of citations that haven't been posted yet -- well, one is sort of 'in-story' actually.


:*D

Although it's interesting to note the in-story examples that do very much appear to say that orcs and goblins are the same thing, even if some other examples, or even but one, appear(s) to imply there might be a difference of some sort.

Another great in-story example is where Bilbo's adventure in the Misty Mountains is described as an adventure with orcs (that's a lot of 'goblins' generally being referred to as orcs), or where certain beings are referred to with both terms, for instance.

 

[Bucky]

But are you here actually stating that you are wrong about 'goblin' being Hobbit-slang, or simply generally illustrating how this might be easily done, if you were wrong?

;*)





Another great in-story example is where Bilbo's adventure in the Misty Mountains is described as an adventure with orcs (that's a lot of 'goblins' generally being referred to as orcs), or where certain beings are referred to with both terms, for instance.

I'm referring to how easy it is to saying you made a mistake. ;*)

But, that's another issue around here lately.

Be thankful if it hasn't touched you.

On the second subject of Bilbo referring to Orcs as Goblins, if you mean in The Hobbit, that's more of the way Tolkien just used the term at the time of the writing of that book.

I was referring to TLOR text itself.

I think a thorough examination of TLOR would be in order, but I'm not reading it right now.

And, I don't dwell on the text like I used to as another book has captured my heart ~ or the one the book is about come to life. ;*)

 

[BeornTheBear]

Thank you all for these very detailed answers. I just wonder why he started calling them Orcs most of the time in TLotR... I know, of course, that The Hobbit is written with a completely different feel and maybe he thought Orcs sounded more... TLotRish than Goblins.

 

[Elthir]

Huzzah BeornThe Bear, you've hit upon it! Sound. And in my opinion, here are the only quotes one really needs. The emphasis with colour is mine of course:

(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.'

JRRT The Hobbit

This note was only added to The Hobbit in the 1960s, well after Tolkien was firmly into his translation conceit. Then there is Tolkien's note to translators, describing his method...

Orc This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated to English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained.'

JRRT Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings

Goblin is a translation for the Westron word orc, or if the context is obviously another language actually spoken in Frodo's day, 'goblin' can be used to translate Sindarin orch, for example, just as well.


I note that according to Tolkien's own system as he explains it, the word orc should always, or usually at least, be translated with English goblin or a word in the language of translation (German, Finnish, whatever), and thus in theory it would hardly, if ever, appear in The Lord of the Rings, just like it was rare in The Hobbit. But Tolkien asks that translators of The Lord of the Rings leave the word orc where they find it (and in English editions, it is already 'left alone' in theory, and not translated 'goblin' in all cases)...

... as JRRT, maker of languages and finely attuned to the sound of words, likes the sound of orc and finds it fitting for his creatures. He will still use 'goblin' in The Lord of the Rings (so far I count 13 instances, but there could be more as I don't have a computer version to aid in finding all examples), but orc becomes a word the Hobbits actually used way back in 'history', well before English became English.

 

[Troll]

There you have it then. Turns out that idle speculation isn't always the key to solving a problem. :*p

(so far I count 13 instances, but there could be more as I don't have a computer version to aid in finding all examples)

Holy cow. 0_o

 

[Elthir]

Well admittedly I may have dug too deep into this matter, but I really only checked parts of the The Lord of the Rings that I thought might contain 'goblin', and I haven't dug so deep as to release a Balrog, that I know of... yet.
　
Anyway, if we apply Tolkien's ultimate 'solution' (I don't think Tolkien is necessarily wholly consistent here in his posthumously published texts), to my mind we can see why examples don't really matter, as in theory it's all Orc in the original, if it's Westron. Example:

'The Eldar crossed the river...' could be more fully translated into English as: 'The Elves crossed the river...' And when a Hobbit says '... about goblins and wolves and things of that sort, I should say no.' (Merry speaking, The Old Forest), we then imagine that Tolkien has here translated orc(s) with goblin(s), and thus Merry really said *about orcs and wolves and...' in any case; or whatever the real plural of orc is in Westron.

So if Merry really said orcs, or that is, if in theory the Red Book really has orc(s) here, then in a sense all examples are really orc, unless we are dealing with Sindarin or something; and so the examples, while interesting, really don't argue that 'goblin' is anything but a modern translation.

Or is this incorrect or wrong-thinking for some obvious reason that escapes me :*D


Is 'goblin' a Hobbit word?


In general, if Tolkien had not told the reader that 'goblin' translates orc -- in general we might have a scenario similar to Hobbit and Halfling.

Westron kuduk -- used by Hobbits, translated with 'hobbit'
Westron banakil -- used by other folk, translated with 'halfling'

That would leave us with the possibility:

unknown Westron word used by Hobbits -- translated with 'goblin'
unknown Westron word used by other folk -- translated with 'orc'

In other words, that's a version of the 'Hobbit slang' theory in my opinion. But Tolkien's version is easier:

Westron orc -- used by Hobbits and other folk, translated 'goblin' (just not all the time)


And why shouldn't orc be an actual Westron word, if the actual Sindarin word is orch, for example (it's close enough in sound). I don't mean to imply Westron Orc was a borrowing from Sindarin, but it could easily be, especially given other statements about Westron and Sindarin that I won't go into for now (although in The War of the Jewels there is posthumously published text that appears to show Tolkien wasn't thinking of a simple borrowing here, not to mention that he appears to say here that orc itself has been used in translation, given the Old English word). 　


'Goblin' in The Lord of the Rings (eagle-eyed people please add to the following)　
　
So far I find 7 examples of narration -- plus 4 Hobbit related: 2 Merry, 1 Sam, 1 Frodo thinking -- plus 2 examples of someone other than Hobbits speaking: 1 Gimli and 1 Gamling.


1) '... Elf fountains, goblin-barkers and thunder-claps.' (narration, A Long expected Party)

2) '... about goblins and wolves and things of that sort, I should say no.' (Merry speaking, The Old Forest)

3) 'He looks more than half like a goblin.' (Frodo thinking to himself, A Knife in the Dark)

4) 'There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria.' (Gimli speaking, Lothlorien)

5) 'Now perhaps we can get away without those cursed goblins seeing us.' (Sam speaking, The Great River)

6) 'There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature,...' (narration, The Departure of Boromir)

7) 'Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head;...' (narration, The Riders of Rohan)

8) 'Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees.' (narration, The Uruk-hai)

9) 'Round them were many smaller goblins.' (narration, The Uruk-hai)

10) 'O ho!' hissed the goblin softly.' (narration, The Uruk-hai)

11) '... and finding the body of the goblin...' (narration, The Uruk-hai)

12) '... these half-orcs and goblin-men...' (Gamling speaking, Helm's Deep)

13) '... man-high, but with goblin-faces...' (Merry speaking, Flotsam And Jetsam)


But we need at least one more! We can't have 13 can we? Not to mention 0 so far in The Return of the King.


There might be at least one more goblin, hiding somewhere in those many pages!