Celtic Myths and LoTR: Parallels?

[jallan]

Lhunithiel posted:

It is so shocking to learn that the ancient Irish tales told about a world parallel to ours!!!
How comes that the ancient had that cosmogonical understanding, taking into consideration that the nowadays science is still reluctant to admit the existance of such worlds and only the science fiction writers take the liberty to "show" them!?

Similar accounts of a more real word underlying our own appear in Hindu myths.

Such speculations may arise from speculation about the world of dreams and from ecstatic visions, both long ago known. The idea seems to be that there is a spiritual world normally invisible to most humans interpenetrating our own. Such ideas appear also in Hebrew writings. From 2 Kings 6:

15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked.
16 "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
17 And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Similarly in the Iliad Diomedes is allowed by Athene for a short time to see the gods who are active on the plain before Troy and who take part in the battle. Diomedes wounds both Aphrodite and Ares which Zeus takes as a great joke.

In actual tales it is not clear to what extent the teller thinks of a full world parallel to our own and to what extent teller thinks of invisible halls of the supernatural which are enchanted to normally appear to human eyes as hills and mounds or empty lakes and of beings that are normally invisible to humans. There is no single metaphysics and what is more important to the teller is often the air of mystery. The use of the term otherworld is so far as I know an invention of modern commentators on Celtic legend.

In any case this has almost no correspondence to scientific speculations about possible other universes with their own time and space or a branching time stream.

Our knowledge of the Irish pantheon comes from traditional tales that have passed through Christian hands. In these stories the old Irish gods and goddesses are rationalized as humans of long ago that had developed great powers of wizardry and magic and who still live in invisibly in a kind of underworld or parallel world, mostly in the old mounds that dot the Irish landscape and are called sídhe.

Unforunately whatever tales the ancient Irish may have told about the creation of the world have not survived in the later euhemeristic tellings.

Is is known where the myth about the making of the Sun and the Moon, as presented by Tolkien, originated from? Is there a similar myth of the ancient Celts/Finns etc. or perhaps from some other mythology...

Nothing that is very close. Legends of Alexander the Great tell of the two trees of the Sun and Moon in the east, but these are oracular trees, not the origins of the Sun and Moon. The Finnish Kalevala relates how the Sun and Moon were stolen and Ilmarin attempted to forge a new Sun and Moon which he hung each on a tree. But the forged Sun and Moon did not shine and it was necessary to find again the true Sun and Moon.

In the Mayan Popul Vuh the Sun first rose many generations after the first men. But nothing is said specifically about how it was created.

Osric posted:

And yet, the one Vala that really struck me as being a clear borrowing was Vána, with her associations with flowers, fire and poetry -- far from an obvious 'sphere of influence'! But isn't that exactly what Brighid / St Bride was associated with.

Vána is not associated with fire or poetry by Tolkien.

As the young goddess of beauty Vána somewhat resembles Greek Aphrodite, Roman Venus and Norse Freyja (at least as closely as can be expected in a pantheon where the power of sexuality is not openly represented). It may not be accidental the Freyja was also called Vanadis ‘goddess of the Vanir’ in the Norse texts. The name Vanir applied to fertility gods has no obvious etymology in Old Norse but it has been suggested that it is linked in some way to the equally inexplicable Latin name Venus.

Aphrodite/Venus is generally pictured as garlanded with flowers and accompanied by doves.

One might also recall young Korë of Greek myth who returns each year bringing the spring, also named Persephonë in her aspect as wife of Hades. The Romans had a goddess Flora who presided over flowers.

I was about to say Maedhros manifested a hint of Nuada of the Silver Hand in the replacement of his lost hand with one wrought of metal, but I checked my sources first and that proved to be an invention of the roleplaying company, ICE. The inspiration was probably right, but it wasn't Tolkien who devised it.

And in Norse mytholgy the god Týr lost his hand to the Fenris wolf and it was never replaced by any substitute hand so far as we are told. A hint of this may appear in Tolkien’s story of Beren.

 

[Arwen48]

Are there any lovers of Wagner out there?
How about Wagner's Ring cycle? There are some striking similarities in the two masterpieces, deriving from norse mythology.
Wagner's ring makes people invisible, and it has a corrupting and destructive power which taints everyone who possesses it.
Wagner's hero has a magic sword
Wagner's heroine is an immortal who sacrifices her immortality for the human she loves
Wagner's warrior heroes go to Valhalla; c/f Theoden and his son who 'have been brave in battle and will go to join their fathers' (more or less)

Tolkien drew from all the sources of myth and legend with which he was
familiar, I can't claim to know much about the different cultures involved but it seems clear that the northern mythologies have a great many symbols in common and it is these symbols rather than one source in particular which Tolkien adopted for his work.

 

[Walter]

Tolkien never seemed quite happy, when his The Lord of the Rings was compared with other, maybe similar tales. In a preface of a Swedish translation where the author Ake Ohlmark addressed the parallels to Wagner's "Ring des Nibelungen" he snapped: "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." (Letters #229).

There are of course a few parallels between Tolkien's and Wagner's epi, but IMO mainly because they both, Tolkien and Wagner, were drawing on the same sources of mythology, namely the Eddas and the Volsunga-saga (incl. all following tales dealing with the Niblungs). The ring in both cases resembles Andvari's ring (though to me the OneRing resembles Plato's "Ring of Gyges" and maybe Odin's ring draupnir as well).

Also Tolkien seemed to have an "intimate dislike" of certain authors (e.g. Wagner, Shakespeare, Spenser, etc.) because he thought they were taking a wrong approach to important issues in literature dealing with tales of historical and mythological origin. Regarding mythology this meant, that Tolkien felt that one had to dig as deep as possible into the sources and roots of such mythologies (which includes also examining the tales in the light of their historical background, etc) and not being content to draw upon superficial similarities.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR...Comments?

In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:

From entry #26:

[Speaking of the names in The Silmarillion:] "...Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright color, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design."

From #130:

"...while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now long steeped in poetry."

That's just a short selection; hopefully it gives the gist of Tolkien's feelings about things Celtic.

Lotho

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

I'm generally wary of attempts to impose systematic relationships between different traditions. People like CG Jung and Joseph Campbell have written extensively on the way the same archetypes always suggest themselves, and spring up independently in the mythologies of different cultures, without one needing to be directly based on the other.

The ruler of the gods of one pantheon can usually be equated with the ruler of another, because they conform to universal features of the human condition.

You bring up a fascinating point, Osric! I have had some occasion to study the works of Jung, Campbell and A. Comfort, and your post reminds me of the notion of "biological hardwiring" as being the reason for the existence of similiarities in myths and the conclusions drawn from them.

The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.

What say you, m'friend?

Lotho

 

[jallan]

The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.

Probably true in some cases and not true in others.

Folklorists have tried to establish which motifs are universal and which seem to have spread from a single source. It is difficult, especially since it is possible that certain modes of life trigger motifs that may not be triggered in other environments. There is also contamination from visiting story tellers including Christian missionaries who may also tell secular folk tales from their own culture.

Campbell’s focused folklore studies are well thought of by experts but his general theories have gained much less respect. Campbell does tend to chose texts that fit his theories and tends to force his reading into a text, somewhat like those studies which attempt to interpret any book as though it were Christain allegory. Since Campbell’s own religion tends towards Hindu mysticism the western reader isn’t so likely to be aware of what Campbell is doing as much as the reader would be if Campbell was reading in a Christian message.

 

[Wolfshead]

Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was Celtic (is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up!

With a 'k'. Can be quite confusing when you have the likes of Celtic (with an 's') football club all over the place.

In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:

From entry #26:

[Speaking of the names in The Silmarillion:] "...Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright color, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design."

From #130:

"...while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now long steeped in poetry."

That's just a short selection; hopefully it gives the gist of Tolkien's feelings about things Celtic.

Barley, these excerpts are quite interesting. Can you tell me who the original letters were written to?

 

[Kolbitar]

Hello,



Just some late night musings...


Depending on how one defines the word “Celt” one may certainly draw parallels between Arthur son of Uther of the Britons and Aragorn son of Arathorn, both of a broken line of High Kings, both of whom restore their royal lineage and establish legitimacy with the symbol of a famous sword, both who in doing so unite their people against a common enemy, both of whose names begin with the letter “Ar” and whose primary counselor is a mysterious wizard.


Parallels may also be seen between Gawain and Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of a challenge amidst a celebration held by his uncle, not unlike what befalls Gawain (in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), both are on a quest which will logically end in death, both recover and return home after one year, though left wounded with physical reminders of their mutual last-minute hubris.


Bilbo should have dealt with the ring when he had it, but due, perhaps, to his arete, (and good writing) he persisted, and the problems associated with the ring were addressed by his nephew. Arthur should have dealt with the Green Knight's challenge, but let his nephew accept the challenge instead.

 

[chrysophalax]

Ah, shoulda, coulda, woulda...but, to paraphrase Gandalf, "We all have our part to play, even though it might not be the part others deem we should have. Who's to say?"

I like the Arthurian parallels though. Arthurian legend has always been a particular favourite of mine. I'm just glad Aragorn never had a Mordred!

 

[jallan]

Depending on how one defines the word “Celt” one may certainly draw parallels between Arthur son of Uther of the Britons and Aragorn son of Arathorn, both of a broken line of High Kings, both of whom restore their royal lineage and establish legitimacy with the symbol of a famous sword, both who in doing so unite their people against a common enemy, both of whose names begin with the letter “Ar” and whose primary counselor is a mysterious wizard.

There is no “broken line of kings” in many medieval versions of the Arthurian tales. Arthur is just brought up at King Uther’s court as his heir.

Only in Robert de Boron’s Story of Merlin and derived accounts is Arthur brought up in secret and the story of the sword in the stone introduced. And only in late accounts derived in part from the Story of Merlin is Merlin Arthur’s counsellor. In some other accounts Merlin is mostly evil.

While certainly the parallels you mention are there in the background, they remain only parallels.

Parallels may also be seen between Gawain and Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of a challenge amidst a celebration held by his uncle, not unlike what befalls Gawain (in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), both are on a quest which will logically end in death, both recover and return home after one year, though left wounded with physical reminders of their mutual last-minute hubris.

Frodo does not know much about the ring until long after his uncle Bilbo has departed. He thinks of it only as a trinket that makes one invisible.

Bilbo should have dealt with the ring when he had it, but due, perhaps, to his arete, (and good writing) he persisted, and the problems associated with the ring were addressed by his nephew.

But even Gandalf did not suspect that Bilbo’s ring was the One Ring, until the very night that Bilbo did give it up.

Arthur should have dealt with the Green Knight's challenge, but let his nephew accept the challenge instead.

Normally, in any monarchy, it is not for the king to undertake individual tasks which would endanger him. Few expected King Georgge or Winston Churchill to join the troops at Dunkirk. In early medieval monarchy, of course, a king is often also a battle leader, but this means leading an army, not venturing into danger alone.

Arthur should have properly dealt with the Green Knight’s challenge by refusing it, even though the reputation of his court might suffer. Sometimes he is shown to be wary of such challenges. Here Arthur is probably imagined to have had a little more to drink than he ought to have drunk. So he shows he is willing to accept the challenge. Gawain, seeing this, as a loyal knight of the king, quite rightly forestalls his uncle.

As another example, Arthur does not respond to Meleagant’s challenge in Chrétien de Troyes’ Lancelot, until Kay tricks Arthur into bestowing an unnamed boon on him, which turns out to be allowing Kay to fight with Meleagant with Guenevere as the prize. In the Prose Lancelot Arthur even forbids his knights to aid the wounded knight as this involves vowing oneself to what Arthur sees as an unreasonable vow.

 

[Mithrandir-Olor]

In the actual Welsh tradition Merlin has nothing to do with Arthur and Arthur is simply Uther's son raised by Uther, no contrived reason for him to be raised as a commoner.

 

[Eledhwen]

I did not mean to imply that Tolkiens writings were anything but Great masterpieces, which were meant as a mythology for England. What his influences were makes no difference, as most mythologies, whether Norse, Irish, or Celtic, have many parallels, and are very similiar, the names and places maybe different, but the stories are all about great heroes and villians, good and evil, strength and power, and the ability to do what is deemed to be the right thing.

England's mythologies were lost, bastardised or deliberately eradicated by a Roman administration fearful of Druid power and influence; and later by Christian missionaries who saw them as a threat. This was made easier by the recording of British history in songs and storytelling rather than hard copy. But much of what survived in the unconquered or less-conquered lands to the north and west applies to England too, as the myths and legends carried and told by the bards and storytellers will have been currency throughout the British Isles. In the tales of King Arthur and his knights of the round table, we see the personalities of British mythological beings become knights. In the saints of Ireland we see the old gods, given Christian garb. Then add the Saxons. They brought their gods with them too (a long barrow near the white horse hill figure at Uffington, Oxfordshire, is known as Wayland's Smithy; the forge of the Saxon god Weland). Now, the two seem completely separate; British mythology is now Celtic to the North and West, and we in England are stuck with Roger Lancelyn Green's Arthur and his round table, and the Victorian elevation of Robin Hood and his merrie men to the nobility, both now Hollywooded to death. So Tolkien, who knew all the influences and how they interwove, re-wove the original British myths into the warp and weft of his own imaginings, to create a new mythology for England; one so successful that it has captured hearts and minds throughout the world.

 

[Eledhwen]

BBC Radio 4 broadcast on Norse/Anglo Saxon Sagas

This broadcast begins (first 10 minutes) discussing the Anglo Saxon influences on Tolkien's writings: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpkyx

 

[jallan]

England's mythologies were lost, bastardised or deliberately eradicated by a Roman administration fearful of Druid power and influence; and later by Christian missionaries who saw them as a threat.

You are very confused between “British” and “English”. The name “England” was only applied to southern Britain long after the Roman era came to an end. Druidism, as far as is known, was long dead in the territory of England when St. Augustine brought Christianity to England. The parts of the island that were still British at that time (Wales, Cornwall, Cumberland) had at that time long been firmly Christian.

In the tales of King Arthur and his knights of the round table, we see the personalities of British mythological beings become knights. In the saints of Ireland we see the old gods, given Christian garb. Then add the Saxons. They brought their gods with them too (a long barrow near the white horse hill figure at Uffington, Oxfordshire, is known as Wayland's Smithy; the forge of the Saxon god Weland).

This is dubious. Some influence on Arthurian tales appears to come from older pagan traditions. Similarly traditional Germanic tales were still told by the English. But much of this folklore was neither specifically pagan nor Christian. They were simply old stores that were repeated and adapted (and often garbled).

Now, the two seem completely separate; British mythology is now Celtic to the North and West, and we in England are stuck with Roger Lancelyn Green's Arthur and his round table, and the Victorian elevation of Robin Hood and his merrie men to the nobility, both now Hollywooded to death.

If you read and believe that Roger Lancelyn Green’s Arthurian retellings are genuine Arthurian traditions, then you have only stuck yourself with this false unbelief. The elevation of Robin Hood to the nobility first occurred, so far as is known, in the plays of the Elizabethan playwright Anthony Munday, long before Victorian times. What the garblings of Hollywood have to do with any of this I do not see, except that they are often equally inventions.

So Tolkien, who knew all the influences and how they interwove, re-wove the original British myths into the warp and weft of his own imaginings, to create a new mythology for England; one so successful that it has captured hearts and minds throughout the world.

Tolkien’s story of the Ring is not related to British or English myths in particular, though one may find some influences. Tolkien never at any time claimed that his Lord of the Rings was intended to be taken as a genuine mythology of England. In one letter Tolkien refers to the earliest version of what became The Silmarillion as related to his ideas of the time about what Old English mythology might have been like in some ways. Some Tolkien fans push this statement to the nonsensical level I see here.

Tolkien based the Shire on the Victorian Sarehole of his boyhood, which is not related in any way to any vanished English mythology. Tolkien’s Rohirrim speak Mercian Saxon and have a culture similar to the Danes in Beowulf, but resemble more the historical Germanic allies of late Rome. Tolkien’s work was successful because of its literary merits, not because of any resemblance of long-lost British or English mythology.