Does touching Anduril really 💀kill you?

[Asgemsuponasilverthread]

Hey. It's 3 a.m. here, so i will be brief. In the Two Towers, Aragorn says to Hama while handing him his weapon that anyone outside of Elendil's line who touches it shall meet a horrible fate.

However. This makes no sense. The elves most certainly had to touch it while reforging it, didn't they? Or is it possible to reforge a blade without touching it? I am not familliar with blacksmithing.

Do you think he was just trying to scare Hama, or does touching the sword really kill you?

 

[Spirit of Fire]

I think, just taking a stab here, that he meant he was going to kill anyone who touched it. He says that "death will come to anyone..." which just means if anyone touches it he is going to brutally murder them.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Possibly. Or it could be that a spell of some kind was laid on the blade. Or several other things. I view it as Tolkien being deliberately ambiguous, as he so often is, leaving the possibilities open.

 

[Halasían]

Doesn't it read something like "... death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."
its noted thst Aragorn himself puts his sheathed sword along with his belt by the wall himself. He does not hand it to Hama.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Doesn't it read something like "... death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."
its noted thst Aragorn himself puts his sheathed sword along with his belt by the wall himself. He does not hand it to Hama.

That is correct, but I don't think the interpretation needs to be complicated at all. I think I am witnessing in this thread a contrived explanation for what is just a very obvious threat. He didn't want anyone to touch it, and if someone were to touch it, they obviously would draw the sword. Occam's Razor, lads.

 

[Elthir]

I think it was a warning (and the Elves had not put such magic on the re-forged blade).

(a warning possibly extending to the sketchers of Rohan).

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Ehh...dude, have you ever learned about cold steel combat warfare?Even slashing a guy's limb will make him handicapped at most if you save him just in time.
In addition, I don't touching a blade will cost you to much force XD Of course it's another matter if it "touches" your limb's artery and slash it by accident XDD

 

[Alcuin]

“Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.”​

This is a malediction. “Some bad thing is going to happen to you if you do this forbidden or prohibited or proscribed act.” It doesn’t prescribe how this bad thing will come about: Aragorn isn’t going to kill Háma if Háma immediately grasps Andúril and unsheathes it, particularly in Théoden’s house! But he’s placed a malediction upon anyone who would be so bold or brazen as to unsheathe the sword to look at it or handle it.

A malediction is closely akin to a curse, but of a subtly different nature: the connotation is that it’s not as strong as a curse. Curses are a form of malediction, but the connotation is that they’re stronger or more dire. Isildur cursed those former worshippers of Sauron who refused to fight despite their oath to do so, and they became the Dead Men of Dunharrow. That’s stronger stuff than the kind of malediction Aragorn speaks in this case, but all maledictions, curses or otherwise, can have undesirable effects, and are expected to have undesirable effects. That’s why Háma is so impressed with Aragorn’s statement.

One more thing: Aragorn’s malediction extends down the generations. If after four hundred years someone draws Elendil’s sword who is not Elendil’s heir, the malediction should still hold true.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

“Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.”​

This is a malediction. “Some bad thing is going to happen to you if you do this forbidden or prohibited or proscribed act.” It doesn’t prescribe how this bad thing will come about: Aragorn isn’t going to kill Háma if Háma immediately grasps Andúril and unsheathes it, particularly in Théoden’s house! But he’s placed a malediction upon anyone who would be so bold or brazen as to unsheathe the sword to look at it or handle it.

A malediction is closely akin to a curse, but of a subtly different nature: the connotation is that it’s not as strong as a curse. Curses are a form of malediction, but the connotation is that they’re stronger or more dire. Isildur cursed those former worshippers of Sauron who refused to fight despite their oath to do so, and they became the Dead Men of Dunharrow. That’s stronger stuff than the kind of malediction Aragorn speaks in this case, but all maledictions, curses or otherwise, can have undesirable effects, and are expected to have undesirable effects. That’s why Háma is so impressed with Aragorn’s statement.

One more thing: Aragorn’s malediction extends down the generations. If after four hundred years someone draws Elendil’s sword who is not Elendil’s heir, the malediction should still hold true.

Again, I think you guys are contriving an unnecessarily complicated story. Good on you, if it makes you happy. But completely unfounded.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Again, I think you guys are contriving an unnecessarily complicated story. Good on you, if it makes you happy. But completely unfounded.

Maybe we enjoy it....

Don't need to be a killjoy.


😒

Cl

P.S. What is the Point then of this part, oh Sage of wisdom?

 

[Halasían]

Maybe we enjoy it....

Don't need to be a killjoy.


😒

Cl

Indeed. I think I prefer Gando rattling off a whole lot of sidetracks than being told that what I think of a book passage to be 'contrived'.

P.S. What is the Point then of this part, oh Sage of wisdom?

Yes, why even mention it at all in the text?

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Maybe we enjoy it....

Don't need to be a killjoy.


😒

Cl

P.S. What is the Point then of this part, oh Sage of wisdom?

What is the point of Aragorn speaking like that to Hama? Aragorn is very protective of Anduril. The history of Middle-Earth has several examples of people who are incredibly possessive of an item. Feanor with the Silmarils, Thingol, Thorin and the Arkenstone, the One Ring, etc... It isn't anything of a stretch to believe Aragorn just simply did not want Hama or anyone else to touch his sword. Even Gimli was equally reluctant to leave his axe. So Aragorn makes an ominous threat, which impresses and scares Hama.

Sorry if being grounded in truth is a killjoy, I do apologise for that. But it's one thing saying "it would be cool if it meant this, do we have evidence?", as opposed to "this is definitely what it meant even though it's a way more complicated and unnecessary explanation and there are simpler more reasonable ones but I like this one so that must be the way it happened".

 

[Alcuin]

No one is arguing that Aragorn was “protective” of Andúril. I think we have some difference with you over the import of his words.

But perhaps the best way forward is to ask you to sharpen your argument a bit. Are you suggesting that Aragorn son of Arathorn, foster-son of Elrond Half-elven, Heir of Isildur, is:

1. Merely voicing an empty threat against Háma?
2. Threatening to kill Háma if he draws Andúril from its sheath?
3. Saying something else entirely: we’ve missed your subtle point.

If you can, be succinct, but please do be as exact as possible: Your incisive perspective has eluded my lack of erudition.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

No one is arguing that Aragorn was “protective” of Andúril. I think we have some difference with you over the import of his words.

But perhaps the best way forward is to ask you to sharpen your argument a bit. Are you suggesting that Aragorn son of Arathorn, foster-son of Elrond Half-elven, Heir of Isildur, is:

1. Merely voicing an empty threat against Háma?
2. Threatening to kill Háma if he draws Andúril from its sheath?
3. Saying something else entirely: we’ve missed your subtle point.

If you can, be succinct, but please do be as exact as possible: Your incisive perspective has eluded my lack of erudition.

I thought I was being completely blunt, but if I may, I will draw this to a point. Anduril was forged by the elves from one of the greatest swords ever. There was no way Aragorn was going to let Hama get his hands on such cutting-edge technology. I'm not sure of the reasons, maybe he didn't like the look of Hama. Maybe he smelt funny. Maybe he thought Hama would sell Anduril and give Theoden a slice of the profits. One thing is sure, by his words he was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword. I hope this explanation that I have thrust forth has been succinct, and not dull. My instructional skills do need to be honed.

 

[Alcuin]

[B]y his words [Aragorn] was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword.

I see. So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors. Interesting.

Well, as the years pass, if ever you change your mind about this episode and happen to recall this thread, do revisit it again with any updates.

I hope this explanation that I have thrust forth has been succinct, and not dull. My instructional skills do need to be honed.

Succinct, yes. Clear, yes. Blunt, definitely. But something among your skills surely needs honing.

 

[Spirit of Fire]

I see. So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors. Interesting.

Well, as the years pass, if ever you change your mind about this episode and happen to recall this thread, do revisit it again with any updates.
Succinct, yes. Clear, yes. Blunt, definitely. But something among your skills surely needs honing.

Correct. He takes Anduril very, very seriously. Hard to say what Tolkien's intent for putting that in was, but maybe to continue to establish Aragorn as far superior to the ordinary men of Rohan. We already had him appear so much more powerful than Eomer, and this could be another instance. You can see Hama gives him the utmost respect. Whatever the reason for it, the result if Hama would touch it is obvious.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors.

Another example of Aragorn preferring to resolve conflict by diplomacy can be seen in the harsh first encounter with Eomer: a dispute quickly spiraling into an armed settlement, should he not have intervened by wisely chosen words at the right moment.

 

[Ron Simpson]

I very much doubt that Aragorn was threatening actual violence against anyone.
He did not wish to be parted from his sword, but the circumstance required it, so as a thinking man - he thought quickly.
Since he clearly did not want another to touch it, he contrived a gloomy pronouncement that would shock and over-awe the (relatively) provincial Rohirim - thereby scaring them into compliance. Essentially, this was a well-played bluff.

(“the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting” / quite sure that Sun Tzu was required reading in the House of Elrond)

One more thing:
-even though the bluff was well-played, it could have been better worded since death comes to ALL men sooner or later and he never mentioned the timing.
(sorry, couldn't help myself)

 

[Halasían]

One thing is sure, by his words he was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword.

Really? If that is the way you interpret it, that is cool. It seems a bit narrow in my opinion though. I went back and read that whole scene again.

I think the context needs to be considered with first Legolas freely handing over his blade and bow and quiver while saying 'Keep these well, for they came from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me.' Hama looked at them in wonder and quickly put them by the wall, saying 'No man will touch them I promise you.'

Then comes the exchange between a genuinely reluctant Aragorn and a rightfully adamant Hama where tensions rise. Gandalf tries to instill the fact a king will rule his house. Aragorn agrees but still does not concede his sword. It's when fighting is mentioned by Hama that Gimli steps in to say Aragorn won't fight all of the Rohirrim alone, and Gandalf steps in and makes peace and hands over his sword to Hama. At this point Aragorn removes his belt and sheathed sword and puts it himself by the wall with Legolas's weapons. It is at this point that Aragorn speaks saying 'Here I set it, but I command you not to touch it, nor to permit any other to lay a hand on it. In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. death shall come to any man who draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' Gimli follows suit with his axe.

I don't see it as a simple 'You touch my sword and I'll kill you.' threat. I see it as Aragorn not wanting to enter Theoden's house unarmed when they knew that Grima was behind Theoden 'advising' him, and likely had a suspicion that Eomer had been 'arrested' on Grima's orders. Was Aragorn prideful and protective of his sword? Yes, but he followed Gandalf's lead and removed it with a heavy warning, seeig that all save Gimli mention that they had Elven weaponry, in Aragorn's case, an elven sheath worthy of holding his sword..

 

[Spirit of Fire]

Really? If that is the way you interpret it, that is cool. It seems a bit narrow in my opinion though. I went back and read that whole scene again.

I think the context needs to be considered with first Legolas freely handing over his blade and bow and quiver while saying 'Keep these well, for they came from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me.' Hama looked at them in wonder and quickly put them by the wall, saying 'No man will touch them I promise you.'

Then comes the exchange between a genuinely reluctant Aragorn and a rightfully adamant Hama where tensions rise. Gandalf tries to instill the fact a king will rule his house. Aragorn agrees but still does not concede his sword. It's when fighting is mentioned by Hama that Gimli steps in to say Aragorn won't fight all of the Rohirrim alone, and Gandalf steps in and makes peace and hands over his sword to Hama. At this point Aragorn removes his belt and sheathed sword and puts it himself by the wall with Legolas's weapons. It is at this point that Aragorn speaks saying 'Here I set it, but I command you not to touch it, nor to permit any other to lay a hand on it. In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. death shall come to any man who draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' Gimli follows suit with his axe.

I don't see it as a simple 'You touch my sword and I'll kill you.' threat. I see it as Aragorn not wanting to enter Theoden's house unarmed when they knew that Grima was behind Theoden 'advising' him, and likely had a suspicion that Eomer had been 'arrested' on Grima's orders. Was Aragorn prideful and protective of his sword? Yes, but he followed Gandalf's lead and removed it with a heavy warning, seeig that all save Gimli mention that they had Elven weaponry, in Aragorn's case, an elven sheath worthy of holding his sword..

I agree context is important. So two things should be noted: 1. Aragorn's earlier resolutions involving diplomacy were not related to any issues directly concerning his pride. 2. Violence was on the cusp of erupting. Gimli was reared and ready to go, and Aragorn clearly wasn't daunted; it took Gandalf to calm him down.

So, with these in mind, the actual explanation is quite obvious. Whether or not Aragorn would have carried out his threat is another matter. In the meantime, we can look at alternative, less likely (100>0) explanations.