Morgoth vs manwe

[Elassar]

Everyone knows the two most powerful of the valar are the brothers,Melkor and Manwe, but who out of those two valarian titans has the greater power.

Manwe, one of the Aratar the leader of the Ainur, the king of the Valar, husband of varda and king of Arda. He lives atop the chiefest peak in world, Taniquetil from upon which he commands the winds and airs as his servants.

But his demon brother Melkor commands the vast legions of Angband, one of the ainur and a black valar. He created the race of orcs by torchering elves and balrogs, deamons of fire once part of the godlike race of Mair.

So brother against brother who will win???

 

[Turin_Turambar]

morgoth of course.because he is defeating tulkas in dagor dagorath.i think tulkas stronger than manwe.

 

[1stvermont]

I am assuming this is a 1v1 fight? Morgoth.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

Good would triumph over evil. Manwe would win.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Good would triumph over evil. Manwe would win.

Of course what you say this will happen in Dagor Dagorath. But before Tulkas descended in arda, Melkor had won all of his battles with the other Ainur. Moreover, among them were the most powerful Valar, such as Manwe Ulmo Orome.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

Of course what you say this will happen in Dagor Dagorath. But before Tulkas descended in arda, Melkor had won all of his battles with the other Ainur. Moreover, among them were the most powerful Valar, such as Manwe Ulmo Orome.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Morgoth. Manwe is far too naive and Morgoth would fight dirty.

 

[Melkor]

In 1 vs 1 fight definitely Melkor. Melkor is the mightiest from the Ainur (even his name says it - Melkor = He who arises in Might). All of Valar weren't able to overpower him. Only Tulkas froced him to flee, because he have more physical strenght (so he is more powerful in that one aspect). Melkor have broader set of capabilities, while other Valar are more specialized in one capability (so they could be better than Melkor in that certain capability, but cannot chalange him in others). Manwë isn't warrior, so cannot beat Melkor in brute force. Another thing is, that Manwë actually doesn't understand evil. So even if he could beat Melkor physicaly, Melkor would fight insidiously, cunningly, he would stab him in the back.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

In 1 vs 1 fight definitely Melkor. Melkor is the mightiest from the Ainur (even his name says it - Melkor = He who arises in Might).

Lucifer means "light-bringing" but he is not "light-bringing" any more because he became evil. The same happened to Melkor. Melkor is not the mightiest from Ainur any longer.

 

[Melkor]

Lucifer means "light-bringing" but he is not "light-bringing" any more because he became evil. The same happened to Melkor. Melkor is not the mightiest from Ainur any longer.

Depending on which time period you speak.

And even late FA Melkor would be cunning enough to stab Manwë in the back.

 

[HALETH✒🗡]

You all know that the Ring was destroyed by a small hobbit because the hobbit was kind. You also know that the With-King was killed by Eowyn who wasn't the strongest person in Middle-Earth. Manwe would triumph over Melkor too. Tolkien was trying to explain this idea throughout all his books.

 

[Rōmānus]

Everyone knows the two most powerful of the valar are the brothers,Melkor and Manwe, but who out of those two valarian titans has the greater power.

Manwe, one of the Aratar the leader of the Ainur, the king of the Valar, husband of varda and king of Arda. He lives atop the chiefest peak in world, Taniquetil from upon which he commands the winds and airs as his servants.

But his demon brother Melkor commands the vast legions of Angband, one of the ainur and a black valar. He created the race of orcs by torchering elves and balrogs, deamons of fire once part of the godlike race of Mair.

So brother against brother who will win???

I clicked for Manwë because when Melkor is called Morgoth he is already weaker than Manwë at this point. When he was captured he realized that Manwë had more power than him, “he has now less personal force than Manwë” (Morgoth’s Ring, Melkor Morgoth). It seems that even at his lowest point his diminishment was only to be seen in relation to the other Valar since he was still stronger than any of the Maiar (Notes on motives in the Silmarillion). In that light I’d think at the very least had he become weaker than his captains this might have become a problem and it would have been noted as it was with Manwë. Before he finally returns to Beleriand he enhances Ungoliant enough that she is actually stronger than he is now at this point (The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor). So she had grown to a being of enormous power thanks to Morgoth siphoning his power off to her.

If you are referring to prime Melkor than he could not “be controlled or ‘chained’ by all the Valar combined.” (Morgoth’s Ring, Melkor Morgoth) Manwë could not hope to win against someone who had “sufficient ‘force’ (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact.”

 

[Olorgando]

If you are referring to prime Melkor than he could not “be controlled or ‘chained’ by all the Valar combined.” (Morgoth’s Ring, Melkor Morgoth) Manwë could not hope to win against someone who had “sufficient ‘force’ (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact.”

I have posted repeatedly that I find JRRT's writings about 'Silmarillion" matters post LoTR to show his decline as a writer, and seriously. At least in one point he seems to forget his own writing. Morgoth "had a part" in the capabilities of all of the other Valar - but he would have been inferior to Aulë in the latter's specialty, or vis-a-vis Oromë, or any of the Valar in their specialty. And then, JRRT himself writes that Tulkas was a late-comer to Arda (so technically not one of the original Valar) and at all times in his specialty, physical force, would have bludgeoned Melkor unconscious in no time at all. Tulkas was the most one-skill Vala of all, but in that skill, Melkor didn't have a ghost of a chance (and if JRRT perhaps envisioned something else, I can only put it down to (unnoticed) onset of dementia ...)

 

[Persephone]

I have posted repeatedly that I find JRRT's writings about 'Silmarillion" matters post LoTR to show his decline as a writer, and seriously. At least in one point he seems to forget his own writing. Morgoth "had a part" in the capabilities of all of the other Valar - but he would have been inferior to Aulë in the latter's specialty, or vis-a-vis Oromë, or any of the Valar in their specialty. And then, JRRT himself writes that Tulkas was a late-comer to Arda (so technically not one of the original Valar) and at all times in his specialty, physical force, would have bludgeoned Melkor unconscious in no time at all. Tulkas was the most one-skill Vala of all, but in that skill, Melkor didn't have a ghost of a chance (and if JRRT perhaps envisioned something else, I can only put it down to (unnoticed) onset of dementia ...)

I agree with this 100%! How old was the professor when he started Silmarillion? This makes absolute sense.

If I'm not mistaken, his description of Melkor was

"To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren." (Ainulindalë, the Silmarillion)

"Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature [...] The greatest power under Eru." (Morgoth's Ring).

"But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself". (Ainulindalë, the Silmarillion).

... so, from this, it is easy to see how powerful Melkor is ... and to assume that he can overpower any if not all the Ainur... but corruption is a big thing in Tolkien's work and that once corrupted, these powerful beings lose their "potency" - which is probably why he was defeated by Tulkas.

He was afraid of Manwe's chic though... Didn't he fear Varda the most?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

How old was the professor when he started Silmarillion?

I believe he started writing down the original stories in 1916, so about 23.

 

[Persephone]

I believe he started writing down the original stories in 1916, so about 23.

then how old was he when he wrote the Sil we have now ... that's a young age for a writer... left plenty of room for development, but maybe he focused more on LOTR... then went back to Sil in his later years

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

That's certainly true, as can be seen by the sequence in which Christopher published the HoME series: the original Book of Lost Tales volumes, followed by Silmarillion material, then the 4 volumes covering the LOTR drafts, and then the books featuring post-LOTR Silmarillion material.

Strictly speaking, of course, Tolkien never "wrote" The Silmarillion -- not in the sense of a completed text. The published Silmarillion was assembled by Christopher from this great mass of his father's unpublished writings.

 

[Persephone]

That's certainly true, as can be seen by the sequence in which Christopher published the HoME series: the original Book of Lost Tales volumes, followed by Silmarillion material, then the 4 volumes covering the LOTR drafts, and then the books featuring post-LOTR Silmarillion material.

Strictly speaking, of course, Tolkien never "wrote" The Silmarillion -- not in the sense of a completed text. The published Silmarillion was assembled by Christopher from this great mass of his father's unpublished writings.

Thank you! I think this is a great visual to aid understanding these literary works - the timeline as well as who collated certainly explains the various incongruencies ... they may be related, but I don't think they shared the same vision for these stories.

This is also my opinion as to why the GOT TV series, particularly the later seasons (which were not written in book form, only based on consultation with the writer) paled in comparison to the ones that were strictly based on Martin's written work.

 

[Olorgando]

That's certainly true, as can be seen by the sequence in which Christopher published the HoME series: the original Book of Lost Tales volumes, followed by Silmarillion material, then the 4 volumes covering the LOTR drafts, and then the books featuring post-LOTR Silmarillion material.

Since I may have bought the first two volumes of HoMe, BoLT vols. 1 and 2, as far back as the late 1980's, then continuing to (erratically) collect the following volumes right up to 1996 and vol. 12 PoMe, my memory is sketchy on details. But I believe JRRT in his early writings also had a somewhat overpowering Melko (as he called him then), which he toned down in later writings. I recall Christopher calling the early phase of his father's "Silmarillion" writings a "primitive stage" in several aspects.

I can agree in one aspect, that JRRT in early phases still hadn't assimilated his sources enough, that they were still (to those knowledgeable about the sources) easily identified. Tom Shippey makes this point in contrasting the the chapters 19 "Of Beren and Lúthien" and 21 "Of Turin Turambar" in the Quenta Silmarillion section of the published Sil. Shippey found OB&L a bit crowded, both in sources and events, and in parts repetitive. OTT, by contrast, in the main has as it's source "The Story of Kullervo" from the Finnish Kalevala. Verlyn Flieger edited JRRT's writings on Kullervo, estimated to date from 1912 to 1914, and thus predating any Silmarillion material, in her 2015 book entitled, appropriately, "The Story of Kullervo". JRRT's version had already toned down some of the roughness of the original (and make no mistake about it: those Scandinavian sagas in the original, be they Norse or Finnish, seem to show societies in which the main "hobby" of the north European tribes seems to have consisted of reciprocal massacres!). When JRRT finally converted "Kullervo" to "Túrin", he had further smoothed the story - hard as it may be to believe for the most tragic tale of the entire Silmarillion tradition!

Why JRRT seems, in later writings, not only to have reverted to descriptions of Melko(r)'s power in his early, "primitive" writings, but went beyond them, totally off the deep end, mystifies me. Here my memory, even though the post-LoTR volumes of HoMe are the newest, fails me for a different reason: I have a bit of Gollum's "dust and ashes" response to some of the content ...

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

In 1 vs 1 fight definitely Melkor. Melkor is the mightiest from the Ainur (even his name says it - Melkor = He who arises in Might). All of Valar weren't able to overpower him. Only Tulkas froced him to flee, because he have more physical strenght (so he is more powerful in that one aspect). Melkor have broader set of capabilities, while other Valar are more specialized in one capability (so they could be better than Melkor in that certain capability, but cannot chalange him in others). Manwë isn't warrior, so cannot beat Melkor in brute force. Another thing is, that Manwë actually doesn't understand evil. So even if he could beat Melkor physicaly, Melkor would fight insidiously, cunningly, he would stab him in the back.

*Nods head and gazes at him silently* You understand yourself very well, Lord of Angband.