Amazon is mutating Tolkien's vision of Middle Earth

[Annatar]

That's Third Age, of course, but it does suggest a tradition of movement, or even migration; certainly the hobbits familiar to us did a lot of it, before coming to the Shire.

I wouldn't go that far to call it a tradition. It seems to me, like the adventurous Bagginses, to be rather the exception to the rule.
And yes, of course there were some major migrations of the hobbits westward over the Misty Mountains, but that was only out of necessity, after they had been settled in the Anduin Valleys for a very long time and the troubles with the Easterlings and orcs got worse and worse, so they were forced to flee.

But well, I realize that good stories always focus on the exceptions to the rule. Let's hope, then, that this nomadic Hobbit tribe is also portrayed as an exception accordingly. But even if it is, I still don't like it. I would have found it better to include the Druedain instead. From the producers' point of view, they could have achieved similar goals and remained more faithful to the books. But unfortunately, the producers don't really know their stuff.

Now another picture with Arondir, the Amazon original EOC, standing on a tower and looking over the Amazon original land of Tirharad:

Again, I have to wonder why Amazon is making all these things up instead of sticking with the books? Do they have to fill in gaps with made up things because they lack the rights for the Sil and UT? If so, can't they do it more in the spirit of Tolkien and make it look less like standard generic fantasy?
Years ago they had created wonderful maps with new details on Harad, Khand and Rhun. It all seems to go unused. Too bad.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I'd totally watch a Bollywood version of The Hobbit.

I'd find that funny too (as long as it is hardstyle aswell). But with the most expensive series of all time, there should be a little more seriousness and faithfulness to the original...
Everythings looks so artificial and kind of cheap, although it certainly wasn't cheap. And at the same, everything is so exaggerated. Hard to describe. It doesn't look real, but like people are making a diorama.

Compare it all to Game of Thrones, regardless of the content, just look and feel. Game of Thrones is mostly believable, but this looks cheesy and artificial, like Wheel of Time. Amazon simply can't do it.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'd find that funny too.

 

[Annatar]

View attachment 13788View attachment 13789

 

[Aldarion]

Or do you think elves must necessarily have long hair?

Yes. Whenever Tolkien described an Elf, male or female, he always had them wear long hair. And it is often described as "flowing", IIRC, meaning it was not braided.

As for the outright general statement, closest we have is I think this:
“All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.”

I mean, he never says there are no elves with short hair, but then again he also never says that there are no Supermarine Spitfires being used in battles, so... Also, look at the context: Tolkien's work outright eroticizes hair, and uses it basically as a status symbol. And when hair was historically used as a status symbol, it was typically long. And seeing how Elves are the elder children of Illuvatar, it makes narrative sense to have them have predominantly long hair.

 

[Annatar]

Yes. Whenever Tolkien described an Elf, male or female, he always had them wear long hair. And it is often described as "flowing", IIRC, meaning it was not braided.

As for the outright general statement, closest we have is I think this:
“All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.”

I mean, he never says there are no elves with short hair, but then again he also never says that there are no Supermarine Spitfires being used in battles, so... Also, look at the context: Tolkien's work outright eroticizes hair, and uses it basically as a status symbol. And when hair was historically used as a status symbol, it was typically long. And seeing how Elves are the elder children of Illuvatar, it makes narrative sense to have them have predominantly long hair.

I like your argumentation, but I'm a bit skeptical about it, because it's not really clear. Beautiful hair or a good hairstyle can actually be rather short when it comes to men. So here I have to play the advocatus diaboli. 😉 But I would definitely agree that there were (nearly) no elves with bald or very short hair.
I'm also skeptical about Tolkien's seriousness regarding the beards of the dwarf women. So as far as hair and beards are concerned, I seem to be rather liberal and would rather forgive Amazon some mistakes or "interpretations" there... Arondir's extremely short hair, however, remains a no-go for me as well.

What annoys me enormously, however, is vegetables in the hair, which leads me to this other ridiculous hobbit picture (with a lot of hair lettuce and cart lettuce). Of course it's not really the lettuce in the hair, that's just a symptom, but I'm sure you get what I mean:

In my opinion, this illustrates quite well the involuntarily artificial, exaggerated, kitschy and somehow embarrassing look that can be found in almost all screenshots and the teaser so far.
And why do little girls have to pull the heavy wagons? That is absolute nonsense and not the case in any culture. Besides, they seem to wear a uniform. Hobbits are actually colorfully dressed, but these look pretty conformist.
And by the way, I believe that the only reason they need these carts is to transport their giant lanterns. 😸

In this picture, you don't see any penetrating "diversity/inclusion" agenda (at least not with the three hobbits in the foreground), which is usually so obtrusive and stands out as the most obvious immersion-destroying criterion. And yet somehow everything here seems wrong and totally stupid and poorly done. It looks like they made an effort, which would also justify the high budget, but still it all seems amateurish. If you give amateurs endless money, it will still be expensive, but not professional. If these amateurs also have little idea of the source material and have not understood what Tolkien's works are about, of course only crap can come out. But unfortunately even the rest doesn't seem to work, so it won't even be a good generic fantasy. The same arrogant idiots are at work here as with Wheel of Time, and it's already been proven that they try to frame any criticism as right-wing.
The project should have been given to HBO or other professionals who understand a bit more about the subject.

This whole scene just seems unbelievable and ridiculous. It's something that maybe children or idiots like to watch, or Tolkien fans like me who don't want to believe it and stand there in disbelief as if in front of an accident.
Oh yes, if someone from Amazon who is involved in this project happens to be reading along here:
Shame on you! You have already failed before the series has even started. You can't be blamed for not having an eye for detail, but you are completely deluded and have no idea what is authentic. Dead on arrival.
This has nothing to do with Tolkien's spirit, this is not Middle-earth, this is just bad and ideology-driven cosplay that mocks the actual fandom and insults Tolkien. And the more you publish of this blasphemy, the more obvious it becomes.

 

[Aldarion]

I like your argumentation, but I'm a bit skeptical about it, because it's not really clear. Beautiful hair or a good hairstyle can actually be rather short when it comes to men. So here I have to play the advocatus diaboli. 😉 But I would definitely agree that there were (nearly) no elves with bald or very short hair.

Well, look at what I said about the context: when hair was used as a status symbol, it was typically long. More importantly, long hair was worn in basically all cultures which Tolkien based his elves on.

I'm also skeptical about Tolkien's seriousness regarding the beards of the dwarf women. So as far as hair and beards are concerned, I seem to be rather liberal and would rather forgive Amazon some mistakes or "interpretations" there... Arondir's extremely short hair, however, remains a no-go for me as well.

Unlike elves' hair, there is no extrapolations here. We have it from both Gimli and Word of God himself:

The Grey Havens - Dwarves: Did Dwarf women have beards?

Croatian WWW Site Dedicated to the World of of J.R.R. Tolkien

tolkien.cro.net

It is stated in Appendices and I believe one volume of HoME that dwarven women had beards. So "dwarven women without beards" doesn't even have a an excuse of "not being directly contradicted".

What annoys me enormously, however, is vegetables in the hair, which leads me to this other ridiculous hobbit picture (with a lot of hair lettuce and cart lettuce):

Yeah, that is rather extremely annoying. It is obvious that the village life we will be getting will be a portrayal of village life by an ignorant city dweller.

And why do little girls have to pull the heavy wagons? That is absolute nonsense and not the case in any culture. Besides, they seem to wear a uniform. Hobbits are actually colorfully dressed, but these look pretty conformist.

That, to be fair, is a typical mistake when portraying a medieval setting. Honestly, old (1950s - 1970s) movies were far better in that regard. Middle Ages were colorful, nobody, not even peasants wore the drab brown etc. clothes that we see portrayed in the movies.

Why We Should See The Middle Ages In All Its 'Garish' Colors

Although perhaps "garish," the recent painting of a 15th-century statue is actually quite true to the original spirit of the piece. Although we tend to think of the ancient and medieval worlds as drab and colorless, medievals of Europe loved bold color in all their objects.

www.forbes.com

I mean, clothes, armor, even buildings themselves... in actual Middle Ages, world was full of color. But for some reason, filmmakers today seem allergic to anything that doesn't look like it was thrown out of the Sepia Collective.

In this picture, you don't see any penetrating "diversity/inclusion" agenda (at least not with the three hobbits in the foreground), which is usually so obtrusive and stands out as the most obvious immersion-destroying criterion. And yet somehow everything here seems wrong and totally stupid and poorly done. It looks like they made an effort, which would also justify the high budget, but still it all seems amateurish. If you give amateurs endless money, it will still be expensive, but not professional. If these amateurs also have little idea of the source material and have not understood what Tolkien's works are about, of course only crap can come out. But unfortunately even the rest doesn't seem to work, so it won't even be a good generic fantasy. The same arrogant idiots are at work here as with Wheel of Time, and it's already been proven that they try to frame any criticism as right-wing.
The project should have been given to HBO or other professionals who understand a bit more about the subject.

Agreed. Main problem is that they simply don't care about Tolkien and his work. And then people have question marks as to why I believe show will be garbage.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Yes. Whenever Tolkien described an Elf, male or female, he always had them wear long hair. And it is often described as "flowing", IIRC, meaning it was not braided.

As for the outright general statement, closest we have is I think this:
“All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people.”

I mean, he never says there are no elves with short hair, but then again he also never says that there are no Supermarine Spitfires being used in battles, so... Also, look at the context: Tolkien's work outright eroticizes hair, and uses it basically as a status symbol. And when hair was historically used as a status symbol, it was typically long. And seeing how Elves are the elder children of Illuvatar, it makes narrative sense to have them have predominantly long hair.

There is more than that, he outright says the Teleri and the Noldor have long hair and he says the Wood-elves twine flowers in their hair (when partying), suggesting long hair as well (which should be no surprise as the Silvan Elves are primarily of Telerin descent):

"But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill."
Morgoth's Ring, LQS
"Finwe (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, except among the chieftains, and then only after settlement in Aman."
NoMe, Hair
"Their gloaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst.
The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders
And just to cover the Sindar (though they are also Telerin):
"In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes..."
WotJ, Quendi and Eldar

====
Regarding the produce in the hair of the *Harfoots, I have seen people seriously arguing that it is camouflage, used to hide from the other races.

 

[Annatar]

"But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill."
Morgoth's Ring, LQS
"Finwe (and Míriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage which did not often take place between clans, except among the chieftains, and then only after settlement in Aman."
NoMe, Hair

Yes, these quotes are pretty clear.
I wonder why Amazon deviates from this? To differentiate themselves stylistically from PJ would hardly be an argument, or they wouldn't have hired Howe and Shore.
With Amzon's Wheel of Woke er Time, it seemed to me that the protagonists should also look as much like modern teenagers as possible, visually. Maybe that's how they do it here, too.
In general, the elves seem to look less ethereal and more human on average.

 

[Lómelindë Lindórië]

I wonder why Amazon deviates from this?

Well, to put it most simply, they just want individuality, and standing out - yet it seems they are standing out too much...

 

[Annatar]

In most generic fantasy television series, such as The Witcher or Shannara, elves are distinguished from humans solely by their pointed ears.
In Tolkien's work, only the noblest of the Edain (and perhaps of Numenor) can possibly be mistaken for elves at first glance, such as Turin.
The Amazon elves look more like Romans to me on the screenshots so far: Uniform, functional armor, short hair, laurel wreaths.
For all I know of the series so far, though, I have to say it could have been worse - much worse. For example, one could still interpret that some warriors tended to wear their hair short in times of war, etc.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Maybe Tolkien fetishized long hair because the Normans cropped theirs so severely.

He did have a bit of a grudge against the Normans. 😄

 

[Annatar]

He did have a bit of a grudge against the Normans.

Well, no wonder with these crappy hairstyles. Unfortunately, I still see it on young people when I'm on the subway. These Normans were apparently trendsetters, even if the shaved area is now more on the side than behind.
Did the Normans also wear their ankles free in winter?

 

[Radaghast]

Figured this video was worth posting here:

 

[Annatar]

The guys from "Fellowship of Fans" apparently have access to a good source of information, because so far they have been mostly right.
Now they have some new rumors about the Numenoreans:
1) They haven't fought in a war for hundreds of years.
2) Although they are a naval power from an island and despite point 1) they have a cavalry.*
3) 50% of the army are women.

*Tolkien: "The Númenóreans in their own land possessed horses, which they esteemed [see the "Description of Númenor," p.177]. But they did not use them in war; for all their wars were overseas."

If these rumors are true, that would be pretty funny again. How could Numenor have been the greatest sea power of all time, have many colonies, and be about to attack Valinor when they hadn't fought a war in centuries? Why would they have a cavalry? Why would half the soldiers be women? It all sounds totally moronic and implausible.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Men were the warriors:
"Thus it is, Ancalimë, and we cannot alter it. For men fashioned Numenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of – of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Numenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war."
UT, Aldarion and Erendis

Women did not go to sea:
"After that seafaring became the chief outlet for daring and hardihood among the men of Numenor.
[...]
The women took little part in these things, though they were generally nearer to men than is the case with most races in stature and strength, and were agile and fleet of foot in youth. Their great delight was in dancing (in which many men also took part) at feasts or in leisure time.
[...]
They did not, however, greatly love the Sea. They would journey in need in the coastwise craft from port to port; but they did not like to be long aboard or to pass even one night in a ship. Even among the fisher-folk the women seldom took part in the sailings."
NoMe, Lives of the Numenoreans

Elves and (other) Men considered the 'amazon custom' of the Haladin strange:
"They [The Folk of Haleth] did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war.
[...]
One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
PoMe, Dwarves and Men

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Thanks for the quotes, Tar-Elenion.

And if it hasn't been said before, welcome back to TTF! 🙂

 

[Annatar]

A few more thoughts on this:

- Tolkien also implies that while the Numenoreans had some horsemen in their forces, these were primarily scouts or transmitters of orders or news.
Furthermore, they used some mounted archers, but these were mainly allies or mercenaries from friendly or pacified peoples.

- Tolkien, as has already been quoted, emphasizes that it was common for the House of Haleth to have women fighting there, and that this was perceived by others as unusual. Therefore, one can assume that such cases would have been explicitly named by Tolkien for other peoples as well.

- It is tactically quite unwise to send women to war, even if they are good fighters. Women, who can also act militarily, are to a large extent sensibly left behind to defend the homeland. Ultimately, in the event of a catastrophic defeat, the continuation of a population is ensured if not only the old, weak and children stay at home during the war, but also many (energetic and capable) women. By the way, it is therefore perhaps no coincidence that in the Second Age there was nothing left of the House of Haleth...

- If it would be common for all races that 50% of the army is female (or even more than 5%), then Eowyn's role would be somehow quite pointless and arbitrary.

- A 50/50 ratio is also historically untenable, and Tolkien's myths are based on the European Middle Ages and the time before. Even though there may have been some warlike Viking girls or Germanic Valkyries, these were still exceptions that needed special mention. There was simply a clear division of roles at that time. And not only then, but to 99.9% of human history. Putting modern views into Tolkien adaptations destroys the immersion, even or especially if it is fantasy.

- So let's hope FoF are wrong this time. 😉

- It is also said that the (Amazon) Numenoreans have stylized horses on their sword hilts. That along with the cavalry might suggest that Amazon is planning to somehow copy the epic Rohirrim moments at the Pelennor battle.

- I'm also curious if the female orcs, who will definitely be present, will also appear as warriors. I would find the representation of female orcs okay, however, and here I must disappoint the "progressive feminists", the female orcs would probably rather be in the role of brooders and birthing machines, who are oppressed by their patriarchal macho men, who are not allowed to leave the home orc cave without a man's permission and who are only responsible for raising as many male orcs as possible... I could imagine, for example, that an orc woman is killed, if there is no male offspring among the first three children, etc. There is no textual evidence for this, of course, but in my opinion this would be the logical consequence and much more likely than equal, strong female orc warriors.

- Amazon didn't understand how to portray strong women in a meaningful way, as we could already see with Galadriel, who is supposed to demonstrate her strength mainly by ridiculous action sequences and as a warlike army commander with an exaggeratedly large two-handed sword and wide-legged manspreading. Even though Galadriel was athletic and definitely knew how to handle a sword, she is misrepresented here and even degraded in her actual, feminine power, as her strength goes much deeper. She could even physically do all this action nonsense, but she doesn't need to, she is sublime to it.
From Amazon's point of view, strong women have to act like men. That's childish and stupid. Women have different abilities than men. They are equal to them, but both sexes have different physical, mental and spiritual prerequisites. These can sometimes or even often overlap, but there is a tendency or statistics that justify appropriate classifications. Amazon (and Netflix and Hollywood and the zeitgeist in general) wants to level these natural things and thus push some kind of naive equality. But the result is only childish, unrealistic and embarrassing nonsense.

- The Tolkien-Estate has - and this can be said after all the published information even before the start of the series (by the way on Tolkien's death anniversary) - either failed or sold its inheritance and its soul for a lot of money to Sauron/Bezos.

- How awesome would it have been if we had written the script for the series together here as a community project? Of course, there would also be many points of contention, but the result or compromise would still be much better. 😁

 

[Halasían]

Men were the warriors:
"Thus it is, Ancalimë, and we cannot alter it. For men fashioned Numenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of – of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain. Numenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war."
UT, Aldarion and Erendis

Women did not go to sea:
"After that seafaring became the chief outlet for daring and hardihood among the men of Numenor.
[...]
The women took little part in these things, though they were generally nearer to men than is the case with most races in stature and strength, and were agile and fleet of foot in youth. Their great delight was in dancing (in which many men also took part) at feasts or in leisure time.
[...]
They did not, however, greatly love the Sea. They would journey in need in the coastwise craft from port to port; but they did not like to be long aboard or to pass even one night in a ship. Even among the fisher-folk the women seldom took part in the sailings."
NoMe, Lives of the Numenoreans

Elves and (other) Men considered the 'amazon custom' of the Haladin strange:
"They [The Folk of Haleth] did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war.
[...]
One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
PoMe, Dwarves and Men

Welcome Back Tar Elenion!

 

[Annatar]

"Nothing is evil in the beginning"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1541453841408765953

What do you think about that phrase? Can we say of Sauron or Melkor that they were not evil in the beginning?
What about orcs born from other orcs, that is, not Melkor's first orcs, made from captured elves by torture or magic (at least according to the Sil.)?

Philosophically, one can certainly discuss this quite extensively. But Tolkien's mythology is based on the struggle between good and evil.
Of course, this is anything but "modern", since today every villain needs his story, why an originally innocent being could become such a bitter, mean creature, and so on. But with Tolkien's mythology it is different. Even though there may be several individuals like Gollum, Saruman or Denethor etc. who are more in line with this modern conception of evil or who became evil at some point, overall it is about the fight against ultimate evil.

I think it is also an illusion in reality that no one is evil from the beginning. Some people are just emotionless psychopaths from birth, and the more intelligent ones shamelessly exploit their lack of compassion to gain power. There is also scientific research that confirms this.

Why someone is or becomes "evil" can therefore have cultural, sociological or fateful reasons or developments as its basis. Or it can happen due to seduction, manipulation or brainwashing methods by other malicious, intelligent entities. But it can also be innate, for example through a genetic defect. And the latter I would postulate for example with the orcs. Even if Tolkien's mythology may not have anything like genetics in the scientific sense, it would still be passed on from generation to generation. In addition, there is the education and socialization component as well as the influence of Sauron and the Ring etc. After the destruction of the Ring, they may no longer have been bound to a superior evil will, but that did not automatically make them to innocent, free and good beings from whom an evil demon just had escaped (like in Warcraft).

So I wouldn't like it if they used their phrase as an opportunity to portray the orcs as mere victims to be pitied, or even Sauron/Annatar as someone who was just misunderstood and driven to evil by adverse circumstances.

What would fit to Tolkien's statements, however, would be, if Sauron at first regrets to have got involved with Morgoth (not because he feels guilty, but because he was on the losing side), but is too cowardly and too proud to face the Valar, and at the same time has the will to make Middle-earth his subject; at first perhaps even in the sense of wanting to create order, even if ultimately according to his will. It would be important, however, that he pursues the purpose to force in particular the Elves under his control from the very beginning. In further respect also the humans, with whom he quickly finds out that he can easily manipulate them and use them for his purposes, while the orcs, whom he perhaps actually even detests, serve him only as a "dirty" tool, if it is no longer possible otherwise - later, of course, as his main weapon.

In any case, I think it's important to show in the series that he first wants to master the elves. After that doesn't work, he starts to hate them even more and attacks. After the Numenoreans interfere to help the elves, he hates these as much as the elves, while cleverly manipulating most other humans for his own purposes.
At least if Amazon won't screw that up, all might not be lost...

It is rumored that Sauron/Annatar will go unrecognized in the first season, while a brother of Galadriel turns evil and commands a band of orcs who worship him as a kind of father. How is that supposed to fit into canon? I'm very curious about that, but I fear that nothing good will come of it. It all sounds too much like random fantasy written by mediocre series authors who don't know anything about Tolkien. In any case, this would all fit very well with the motto "nothing is evil in the beginning". Galadriel's weird brother was a good guy at first, of course, but circumstances drove him to it! And of course the orcs are just a poor bunch, who were just abused by certain rulers, and this brother of Galadriel now promises them to lead them to a better future etc..
But we'll see.


There are also new images of Celebrimbor.

(Ah, another one of those lanterns. And a cheesecake.)

(Why is Celebrimbor standing in the forest instead of the magnificent High Elven city of Ost-in-Edhil? Another indication that they will reduce even the Noldor of the 2nd Age to the Lorien stereotype.)

Many say that he was miscast because he is too old and looks like a lord from Game of Thrones rather than an Elvish master smith. He should probably also be younger than Galadriel. So Galadriel and Elrond look too young, while Celebrimbor is obviously a bit too old.

Quote from the far reaches of the internet:
"I was just thinking he fits better in star wars senate indeed".

Even if he may seem a bit too old and lacks long hair, at least I personally like the actor's face, which I can't say about the Elrond actor (and that was already the case for Hugo Weaving - I don't even know who I find worse).

 

[Rōmānus]

Celebrimbor and Galadriel should get together and switch outfits, and Elrond should get some shoe polish and run it through his hair.