How come Snow White was so reviled by "J.R.R Tolkien and C.S Lewis"?

[herlig9]

I am glad it did so well though. Otherwise we wouldnt have gotten the amazing animations of later 80s and 90s from Disney.
But i had to see what dwarves in Snow White looked like? Here is some old images i found online.

So as you can see. Most seems to depict them as semi realistic short people. They kinda looks like "Nisser"
which is what we call them in Norway

Nisse (folklore) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But what you think?

Another one. But maybe this is why Tolkien didnt like the childish depiction. He may have expected it to look more like this

Dwarf (folklore) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ent]

Haroom Hum, Mr. Underhill sir. I did not know Snow White was reviled by them.

Tolkien was so well versed in all the old lore and materials, I'm certain each of them had their part in informing his concepts for his dwarves. They certainly did for his elves and other creatures. One thing I do not have handily available is Tolkien's own artwork. But it seems to me there is little difference in his depiction of them 'in the text' from any of the pictures I see above.

One thing to consider is whether an artist was trying to depict the characters for an adult or a youth audience. This often colors the direction in which a rendering is taken.

Can you offer up a source for where we find Snow White being reviled? I'd like to see the original language used to help me understand why she was "wringing her apron" over the matter.

 

[herlig9]

Haroom Hum, Mr. Underhill sir. I did not know Snow White was reviled by them.

Tolkien was so well versed in all the old lore and materials, I'm certain each of them had their part in informing his concepts for his dwarves. They certainly did for his elves and other creatures. One thing I do not have handily available is Tolkien's own artwork. But it seems to me there is little difference in his depiction of them 'in the text' from any of the pictures I see above.

One thing to consider is whether an artist was trying to depict the characters for an adult or a youth audience. This often colors the direction in which a rendering is taken.

Can you offer up a source for where we find Snow White being reviled? I'd like to see the original language used to help me understand why she was "wringing her apron" over the matter.

Sure. Here it is

J.R.R Tolkien and C.S. Lewis Bonded Over Hating Disney's Snow White

Authors C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both disliked Walt Disney's animated films, specifically 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.'

www.insidehook.com

 

[Ent]

Sure. Here it is

J.R.R Tolkien and C.S. Lewis Bonded Over Hating Disney's Snow White

Authors C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both disliked Walt Disney's animated films, specifically 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.'

www.insidehook.com

AHA, thank you. And it shows i had the "reviled" backward.
She was not "reviled by them" in the sense that she was the one 'put out'.
They were actually the ones 'put out'.
One of the cases where our English Language can be written in a way that makes perfect sense to the writer, but can mean two different things to the reader, depending on the perception.

thanks much, I'll look at this...

 

[Olorgando]

Sure. Here it is

J.R.R Tolkien and C.S. Lewis Bonded Over Hating Disney's Snow White

Authors C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both disliked Walt Disney's animated films, specifically 'Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.'

www.insidehook.com

That looks to be aimed at Disney generally, and their take on the dwarfs in their animated version of the Snow White story.
JRRT's dislike of Disney is probably well-known. I doubt that this means he disliked the source material that the Brothers Grimm collected.

 

[Ent]

That looks to be aimed at Disney generally, and their take on the dwarfs in their animated version of the Snow White story.
JRRT's dislike of Disney is probably well-known. I doubt that this means he disliked the source material that the Brothers Grimm collected.

Initial agreement here from the Ent...maybe more later. I've actually bumped into this before, but had my branches twisted...now that I've untangled them it's a little more familiar to me.

Having re-read the ever-so-brief article now, the Enting would give this 'opinion'.

First, it's important to remember the vast difference in the target audiences of the writers. Disney was specifically appealing to the younger audiences.

Second, it's important to remember that Disney (almost) never 'created' a story. He always took pubic domain works of others, or purchased the rights to some works, and altered them as it suited him to make them fit his targeted audiences. Some of the alterations were huge. We know Tolkien at least was very serious about not having 'editors' and others change his stories. I'm sure this strong desire flowed over into his impression of others, whose whole life was spent taking established works and altering them into what they originally were not.

Third, he was not well educated, though he was quite smart. This I feel was a little bit of a character flaw in both Tolkien and Lewis - that slight "elitist" mindset that both displayed from time to time. I suspect their dislike for what Disney DID extended into their "picking at him" personally as well.

Fundamentally, why did they revile him and his works? i believe it was because he was not a creator of works, but a borrower and re-worker of others' works, which in their minds was not an appropriate thing to do.

We can ask ourselves this: why do so many "revile" Peter Jackson and his Tolkien films? And why are they so dead-set against the upcoming "Rings of Power" ??

Because these things are "Like Disney works" - altering the sources rather than being true to them.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

My impression is that Tolkien particularly disliked Disney's tendency to "cutesify" everything, especially the Dwarves. Fair enough, though when I saw Snow White as a tyke, I didn't find the Queen cutesy at all -- in fact, she gave me nightmares.😳

Tolkien held strong opinions; in the letter where he calls Disney "vulgar", he says the same of Browning. And expresses a lifelong hatred for Hans Christian Anderson.

He certainly wasn't alone in harboring a dislike of Disney. For example, Stravinsky resented the chopping up of his "Rite of Spring" in Fantasia. In the program notes for his own recording of Rite, he says "I will say nothing of the film, for I do not wish to criticize an unresisting imbecility. . ."

 

[Berzelmayr]

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

 

[Olorgando]

Fundamentally, why did {JRRT and C.S. Lewis} revile {Walt Disney} and his works? i believe it was because he was not a creator of works, but a borrower and re-worker of others' works, which in their minds was not an appropriate thing to do.
We can ask ourselves this: why do so many "revile" Peter Jackson and his Tolkien films? And why are they so dead-set against the upcoming "Rings of Power" ??
Because these things are "Like Disney works" - altering the sources rather than being true to them.

Something of the sort had been going on for centuries, as JRRT knew quite well.
Re-reading Tom Shippey's "The Road to Middle-earth" (2003 3rd edition), I stumbled across a quote from an essay of JRRT's (to be found in Christopher Tolkien's edited "The Monsters and the Critics") on the poem "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight":

"It is an interesting question: what is this flavour, this atmosphere, this virtue that such rooted works have, and which compensates for the inevitable flaws and imperfect adjustments that must appear, when plots, motives, symbols, are rehandled and pressed into the service of the changed minds of a later time, used for expression of ideas quite different from those which produced them."

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The idea of a Disney Lord of the Rings is intriguing, even though we know what Tolkien would think.

As a fan of film noir, I've always been fond of the Warner Brothers classic.

Admittedly, a few liberties were taken, but we're used to that. 😉

 

[Ent]

The idea of a Disney Lord of the Rings is intriguing, even though we know what Tolkien would think.

As a fan of film noir, I've always been fond of the Warner Brothers classic.

Admittedly, a few liberties were taken, but we're used to that. 😉

Indeed, I have often thought of this. Both in the animation realm, and as an epic production.

Even (or especially) their older animation crew (the nine old men) had the ability to do a wonderful job with the animation. And Disney himself certainly had the genius and skills in the advancing of the animation technology.

The only question was intent.

But personally, I've come to the point that an 'animated' version of it in itself would be a slight distraction, because it seems ever so "real" to me as the years go by.

At the end of the day I'd like to see what someone other than PJ could do with the things... rarely do I seek a "re-do" of something, once its done... they almost never measure up to the original... but TH and LoTR could really, really use one.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

But personally, I've come to the point that an 'animated' version of it in itself would be a slight distraction, because it seems ever so "real" to me as the years go by.

Sorry -- new animated film coming up. 😄

The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Ent]

Sorry -- new animated film coming up. 😄

The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's OK. given its title, it's clearly not TH or LoTR. It accurately says "based on...." which means severe invention to make a movie out of a few written scenes in his works. (Or just the anecdotal mention of a previous war in which the Rohirrim were involved.)

One can certainly watch such as this to 'enjoy it for what it is, rather than for what it is not.' (or not.) 😁

I don't mind anything that holds itself forth as being 'based on'... as long as it doesn't try to hold itself forth as being 'his works' and then slaughter it unseemly. (Though even then, one can find some things to appreciate in the work. It's just the deception that would irk me.)

Apparently Tolkien wasn't too keen on the Fab Four either though they were fans of his books and wanted to make a film of the LotR

Fab_Four

You see? Tolkien WAS blessed with an extra measure of wisdom..!
The only thing the Beatles were, is forgettable.
And such an endeavor would definitely have been a disaster.

(This is, of course, my own opinion of them.)

 

[Olorgando]

The only thing the Beatles were, is forgettable.

A-hem!
Plenty of classical composers, conductors, and musicians would beg to differ - as would I.
They might be forgotten at roughly the same time that JRRT might be ...

 

[ZehnWaters]

Initial agreement here from the Ent...maybe more later. I've actually bumped into this before, but had my branches twisted...now that I've untangled them it's a little more familiar to me.

Having re-read the ever-so-brief article now, the Enting would give this 'opinion'.

First, it's important to remember the vast difference in the target audiences of the writers. Disney was specifically appealing to the younger audiences.

Second, it's important to remember that Disney (almost) never 'created' a story. He always took pubic domain works of others, or purchased the rights to some works, and altered them as it suited him to make them fit his targeted audiences. Some of the alterations were huge. We know Tolkien at least was very serious about not having 'editors' and others change his stories. I'm sure this strong desire flowed over into his impression of others, whose whole life was spent taking established works and altering them into what they originally were not.

Third, he was not well educated, though he was quite smart. This I feel was a little bit of a character flaw in both Tolkien and Lewis - that slight "elitist" mindset that both displayed from time to time. I suspect their dislike for what Disney DID extended into their "picking at him" personally as well.

Fundamentally, why did they revile him and his works? i believe it was because he was not a creator of works, but a borrower and re-worker of others' works, which in their minds was not an appropriate thing to do.

We can ask ourselves this: why do so many "revile" Peter Jackson and his Tolkien films? And why are they so dead-set against the upcoming "Rings of Power" ??

Because these things are "Like Disney works" - altering the sources rather than being true to them.

I would also like to add that it is my opinion that Tolkien simply struggled with the change in medium. Film was relatively new to storytelling (especially when Tolkien lived) and requires an entirely different style of storytelling. The stakes are different, the style is different, the amount of time allowed is VERY different. This is true even between movies and TV shows and now, streaming series (which are more like mini-series films). It's true that they are similar to plays and the like, but they are still markedly different and I think Tolkien didn't like the adaptation necessary.

Having said that, there was also, likely, the distaste for "Americanization". A trait still found among Europeans. Americans delight in transforming things into something of their own. Of adapting. This is not a negative trait, and comes out of the heavy variation of our peoples backgrounds. We are, as they say, a "melting pot". Many, like Tolkien, don't like this as they seem to view it as a corruption. Ironic, since, historically, there is no "pure" version of history or myth. Look at the different versions of mythical stories written about the Greek gods.

 

[ZehnWaters]

View attachment 15097

I would guess another reason Tolkien didn't like Disney was the stylization of his art. Tolkien would have wanted something more serious. Ironic that he found it so childish considering the "trlala"ing of his elves in The Hobbit.

 

[Olorgando]

We are, as they say, a "melting pot".

Some like this self-vision, possibly more do not. An alternative view I have read is that of a "tossed salad", one with very many distinct ingredients.
Disney himself may have been the first, in his lifetime (his successors in the company certainly went immensely further down this road) to try to appeal to the olives, carrots, peas, lettuce, beans, tomatoes, potatoes and whatnot in this salad. If you do it in a salad bowl, it might work (but there are, unsurprisingly, a whole lot of other possible ingredients missing).
Toss salad ingredients into a "melting pot" (meant to produce metal alloys, thus very hot) and what do you get? Organic ashes ...

 

[ZehnWaters]

Some like this self-vision, possibly more do not. An alternative view I have read is that of a "tossed salad", one with very many distinct ingredients.
Disney himself may have been the first, in his lifetime (his successors in the company certainly went immensely further down this road) to try to appeal to the olives, carrots, peas, lettuce, beans, tomatoes, potatoes and whatnot in this salad. If you do it in a salad bowl, it might work (but there are, unsurprisingly, a whole lot of other possible ingredients missing).
Toss salad ingredients into a "melting pot" (meant to produce metal alloys, thus very hot) and what do you get? Organic ashes ...

It's true that not all of the ingredients melt to form a new whole. But they do more than just exist side-by-side in the same bowl. There is certainly an amount of melding. The cultures all certainly mixed into some sort of new form, even if whole chunks remained distinguishable.