Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien

[Radaghast]

He did, actually. Admittedly, he didn't write about orc reproduction in LOTR. -- but the Prologue makes clear hobbits didn't "enter history" until the T.A., which a far cry from "didn't exist".

Yes, Merry sums it all up rather neatly to Treebeard:

‘We always seem to have got left out of the old lists, and the old stories,’ said Merry. ‘Yet we’ve been about for quite a long time. We’re hobbits.’

• "Treebeard"

I believe this is code for, "I couldn't be bothered to go back to those old stories and insert hobbits into them, what are you, crazy?"

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

That's about right.

Also; Hobbits just weren't very adventurous, so they would not be in lore and tales of Elves, Men, Dwarves, Ents, because they never journeyed that far. How obscure it was that Bilbo left, is proof of that.

 

[Ugluk]

Visitor: "How can it be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?!?!
Doctor: "Because it's dimensionally transcendental."
Visitor: "What does that mean?"
Doctor: "It means it's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside! Stop bothering me with silly questions."

"Finally it's my turn.

My entire understanding of physical space has been transformed! Three-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constants of physical reality has been changed... forever....!

Sorry, I've always wanted to see that done properly."

 

[Eljorahir]

"Finally it's my turn.

My entire understanding of physical space has been transformed! Three-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constants of physical reality has been changed... forever....!

Sorry, I've always wanted to see that done properly."

I don't want to derail this thread again into a Doctor Who fan club reunion. However, I have to ask: Is this a quote from a character in an old episode?

 

[ZehnWaters]

I saw a friend on Twitter mention that it'd make more sense for the female lead to be Celebrían than Galadriel and....that actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

That actually does... Plus, I have always liked the character of Celebrian. She is amazing.

 

[Ugluk]

I don't want to derail this thread again into a Doctor Who fan club reunion. However, I have to ask: Is this a quote from a character in an old episode?

It's the 2015 Christmas special "The husbands of river song" where the doctor is invited into the Tardis by his wife who does not recognise his current regeneration Peter Capaldi) saying "prepare yourself for a shock".

 

[Eljorahir]

It's the 2015 Christmas special "The husbands of river song" where the doctor is invited into the Tardis by his wife who does not recognise his current regeneration Peter Capaldi) saying "prepare yourself for a shock".

Thanks. Found it on YouTube. Never saw that one before. It was awesome!

 

[Ugluk]

Thanks. Found it on YouTube. Never saw that one before. It was awesome!

The scene later when she realises who he is both awesome and lovely.

 

[Ealdwyn]

The scene later when she realises who he is both awesome and lovely.

Fantastic episode. The chemistry between them is amazing.

I'm glad to see some DW geeks on board.

 

[Radaghast]

Is it certain Durin's Bane fled the sinking of Beleriand/War of Wrath?

Uh... yeah, because the text says so 😕

Isn't it possible he was one of those who fled Utumno post War of Powers, "roamed in the waste places of the world," and never answered Melkor's call to fight off Ungoliant?

The quote this cites doesn't even mention Balrogs 🙄

Why didn't Frodo and the Hobbits kill and eat Shadowfax when they were running out of food at Helm's Deep?

You might think this was a joke question (even if it's not funny). I certainly did and said as much. But the asker replied:

I didn’t know [the hobbits weren't at Helm's Deep]. I had a feeling that maybe they weren’t but I didn’t bother researching. Horse meat is bad but it will do in a pinch.

How does this person know anything about LoR at all if he doesn't know such basic stuff? 😖

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

'But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.'

Of course, I wouldn't expect someone who thought the hobbits were there to have read that. 😣

 

[Ugluk]

You might think this was a joke question (even if it's not funny). I certainly did and said as much. But the asker replied:




How does this person know anything about LoR at all if he doesn't know such basic stuff? 😖

Clearly the read they book or watched the films but have no comprehension. There are just not enough eye rolls in the known universe to encompass these questions.

 

[Radaghast]

Would Faramir have been a better choice than his brother Boromir for the Fellowship of the Ring?

So that the Quest could be more successful than it is? 🤨

Also, it's noteworthy that Boromir's temptation for the Ring, which Faramir doesn't have, is basically what saves the Quest on Amon Hen.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

True, but we don't know how the quest might have been affected by his presence. For instance, he apparently had more experience on the Eastern Shore, and was was more used, by experience and temperament, to secretive missions than Boromir was. My guess is that he would have accompanied Frodo. He almost certainly wouldn't have tried to talk him into taking it to Gondor.

And I'll note that the "voice" seems to have thought he'd be the better choice.

 

[Radaghast]

True, but we don't know how the quest might have been affected by his presence. For instance, he apparently had more experience on the Eastern Shore, and was was more used, by experience and temperament, to secretive missions than Boromir was. My guess is that he would have accompanied Frodo. He almost certainly wouldn't have tried to talk him into taking it to Gondor.

And I'll not that the "voice" seems to have thought he'd be the better choice.

As wise as Faramir is, I doubt he'd be able to sneak into Mordor as the Hobbits end up doing. Also, Amon Hen is the key to my argument. Assuming everything else goes the same until the point when the orcs attack. I don't see any reason why Frodo would break off on his own at this point.

Also, Boromir plays a key role in getting the Company down from Caradhras. I don't think Faramir is nearly as physically strong as his brother.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.

 

[Eljorahir]

Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.

The part about the dream which causes Boromir to seek Rivendell always leaves me a bit uncertain. Boromir tells The Council:
"...a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."

So, according to Boromir, Faramir had the dream multiple times, and Boromir had the same dream only once.

Why would a prophetic dream be sent to one brother multiple times and the other brother only once? My feeling (with uncertainty) is that Boromir never really had the dream at all. He only heard the dream described to him by Faramir. Then, he somehow (due to his pride) convinced himself that he also had the same dream. Then, again due to his pride, he took upon himself the mission that was actually meant for Faramir?

I'll be interested to hear if anyone can shed any light on this for me.

 

[Radaghast]

Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.

Sure, Tolkien could write a different scenario where Faramir is the one who joins the Fellowship, and the Quest still successful, but it would be a different story entirely, and probably one not as satisfying; and there's a character study of each brother that's better realized as it is than it otherwise would have been.

Also, even if Tolkien writes Faramir into the Fellowship rather than Boromir, I'm still not sure how that would be better, unless it means Boromir ends up not dying, but even that's not a given.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The part about the dream which causes Boromir to seek Rivendell always leaves me a bit uncertain. Boromir tells The Council:
"...a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."

So, according to Boromir, Faramir had the dream multiple times, and Boromir had the same dream only once.

Why would a prophetic dream be sent to one brother multiple times and the other brother only once? My feeling (with uncertainty) is that Boromir never really had the dream at all. He only heard the dream described to him by Faramir. Then, he somehow (due to his pride) convinced himself that he also had the same dream. Then, again due to his pride, he took upon himself the mission that was actually meant for Faramir?

I'll be interested to hear if anyone can shed any light on this for me.

As far as I know, Faramir himself didn't say anything about having the dream several times-- at least I haven't found a reference to it.

The words do play an important part in demonstrating Frodos bona fides to him, in the scene in Ithilien.

As far as taking on the mission to Rivendell, when Denethor twice expresses regret that Boromir, rather than Faramir, went, he is reproved, first by Gandalf:

'Faramir should have gone in his stead.'
'He would have gone,' said Gandalf. 'Be not unjust in your grief! Boromir claimed the errand and would not suffer any other to have it. He was a masterful man, and one to take what he desired.'

And later by Faramir:

'I would ask you, my father, why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.'

Given this, and what you say about Boromir's pride, it seems to me that we could expect any falsehood by him about the dream to be that he, rather than Faramir, was the one who had it "several times", so in this case, I believe we can take him at his word.

Faramir being a late -- and by the author unwanted -- entry into the story, I assume Boromir's words to the Council about his brother were retrofitted. There's probably a note by Christopher somewhere, but the chapter went through a number of tangled changes, and I'm too tired-- or lazy -- at the moment to try to track it down.