S01 Season 1 Episode 6: Udûn Breakdown

[Elthir]

- How did your wife die? - She drowned. - THE SEA IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!!

Did he actually say drowned "in the sea" though? Maybe she drowned in a river that's
only right ninety percent of the time? Or a bathtub that can't even do basic arithmetic?

That's right, arithmetic. It's still a word. Just ask the Sea!

🐾

 

[Goldilocks Gamgee]

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. They're over a thousand years too late to that, though.

Well, the Tolkien Estate gave them permission to mess with the timeline, I think.

 

[hollowboldmickelburg]

Is this section of the entire workfrom The Tale Of Years or from The Silmarillion?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

They have the rights to the Appendices, but can clear Silmarillion material on a case-by-case basis, so I understand.

And welcome to the forum, hollowboldmickelburg! If you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and say something about your particular interests, don't forget our New Members forum:

https://thetolkien.forum/forums/new-members.58/

 

[Elthir]

Well, this explains some things.

But even so, in my opinion Isildur shouldn't have wasted the rest of that apple!

 

[Annatar]

Did he actually say drowned "in the sea" though? Maybe she drowned in a river that's
only right ninety percent of the time?

THE RIVER IS ALMOST ALWAYS RIGHT!
But maybe not in this case.
Or maybe she looked down into the dark water like a stone instead of looking up into the light like a boat.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

- How did your wife die?
- She drowned.
- THE SEA IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!!

That's a good response to use in many situations, really. 😂

 

[Elthir]

Or maybe she looked down into the dark water like a stone instead of looking up into the light like a boat.

Ahh good point!

 

[Kiredor]

Well. I have watched this episode.
my comments:
…………………..
……………………….
…………………………….
Any questions?

Well, you said, 'There is much to be said for saying little.' LOL excellent answer.

I have entered the world of Amazon Prime, and their 'writers' version of the 2nd age, with an open mind accompanied with slight trepidation. I know there will be inaccuracies (i.e. Harfoots don't arrive until hundreds of years later. And they prefer holes in the ground - not movable tents on carts!) However, insofar as I am a tad uncomfortable with some of the acting, there are too many false accents and some mumbling occurs. I dislike the fact that their writing lacks the philology of Tolkien's prose in order to accommodate today's literacy levels, but I can accept that as a reasonable situation.
I do like the graphics (scenery) so far, and the friendship/comedy between Durin (good to see the Longbeards in Khazad-dûm) and Elrond puts a smile on my face.
Verdict: Watchable if you ignore some inaccuracies.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I dislike the fact that their writing lacks the philology of Tolkien's prose in order to accommodate today's literacy levels, but I can accept that as a reasonable situation.

Oh, they try to cram in their very bad approximation for it.

I do like the graphics (scenery) so far

The graphics are really great; I will give them that.

 

[Kiredor]

Oh, they try to cram in their very bad approximation for it.

The graphics are really great; I will give them that.

Lol. I know what you mean. Cringeworthy at times, but overall I find it bearable, even if only to satisfy my curiosity about the individual veiled plots within the story.

 

[Ent]

Well, you said, 'There is much to be said for saying little.' LOL excellent answer.

In time, you will likely find I try to maintain as absolutely unbiased and level a posture as possible on just about anything that can become 'controversial'.

Not that I avoid dealing with differences of opinion when people understand what opinion is, and how to handle it so it does not become heated controvery.

But in our world today, the Religion of Opinion reigns, and I try very hard not to contribute to that.

 

[Valandil]

- How did your wife die?
- She drowned.
- THE SEA IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!!

"DROWNDED!" exclaim all the hobbits at once in Bywater's Green Dragon.

 

[Halasían]

Perhaps it would help some if I just actually state what my opinion/position is regarding RoP clearly, as it's not going to change for quite some time yet.
So here we go:
(@Annatar, here is "an Enting's perspective" as you once remarked.)

1. Is "Rings of Power" Tolkien. NO.
2. Is "Rings of Power" based on Tolkien. YES.
3. Does "Rings of Power" "fit" anywhere into the World of 'real things Tolkien?' Only tangentially within, mostly externally.
and finally:
4. What is "Rings of Power" classified as: a) - Tolkien's works b) - Works about Tolkien's works? c) - only fanfic d) - pure 'other' fantasy
...... c) - only fanfic.
5. Is "Rings of Power" acceptable fanfic? TO BE DETERMINED.

Thus, when I review the Episodes, I am bringing myself to a 'neutral position' solely on one thing remaining to be determined: #5 above.
whether it presents itself as 'acceptable or unacceptable fanfic' based on the criteria I myself hold for what 'fanfic' is or should be. (My 'opinion'.)

So again: if anyone wants to know the Enting's thoughts or position, or has any questions, regarding Rings of Power, please refer back to this post. 😁

I may speak to YOUR thoughts as you post them, oh TTF members at large... or ask you questions about 'why' or such.

Those may help me see differently in my conclusion of #5 in time, should they alter my current perspectives on what makes for good or bad 'fanfic'. I am always open to change.

This is the most sensible post I’ve read here in a while. Thanks for your perseverance here Enting.

In reference to #4, it is clearly stated in the opening credits that Rings of Power ‘is based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien’ not ‘is’ the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.

 

[ZehnWaters]

This is the most sensible post I’ve read here in a while. Thanks for your perseverance here Enting.

In reference to #4, it is clearly stated in the opening credits that Rings of Power ‘is based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien’ not ‘is’ the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Except it's not based on them either. It's "inspired by" at best.

 

[Halasían]

Except it's not based on them either. It's "inspired by" at best.

That is a matter of opinion.

 

[Ent]

Hum. I'm struggling just a bit @Halasían and @ZehnWaters.

MEANINGS:
"Based on" meaning: "To found or root something on a particular idea or occurrence."
"Inspired by" meaning: "Based on, derived from, built around, constructed around
"inspiration" definition: "the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative:"

Hum.
I know that I myself am a bit of a 'word nerd', and tend to try to fully understand the meanings and applications of words. (The concept of "Allegory" currently afoot here and there on TTF is one example that I'm researching.)

But we can go to the point of "quibbling", which isn't a constructive thing.
I wonder if we approach that, if we try to separate "based on" and "inspired by" in their applications.

Personally, I believe RoP is most thoroughly 'based on' ('inspired by') the ideas of Tolkien and the occurrence of his presentation of the groundwork for such a fanfic as this is.

I do not think it would have been undertaken if it was not inspired by his groundwork, which gave them the basis from which they have built it.
(Yes, this last reveals the slight difference of meaning and application...intentionally...yet the difference isn't in the root, but in the outcome - the derivatives.)

Now... it is very true that there can be things "inspired by" a work that have nothing to do with that work. Neil Hancock's "Circle of Light" series is such a work.

The difference is, Neil Hancock borrowed NO characters, NO events, NO fundamentals of the fantasy work from which he borrowed. Thus it is only "inspired by".

However, RoP is clearly 'based on' because of all that it contains that is directly from Tolkien... without Tolkien's work and characters, it simply would not 'be'. It is not a 'parallel creation' at all.

So if we DO want to get to quibbling over words and driving them to their cores, I'm your man. let's go. Fisticuffs available here. 😁

But I'd really rather not fight.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Hum. I'm struggling just a bit @Halasían and @ZehnWaters.

MEANINGS:
"Based on" meaning: "To found or root something on a particular idea or occurrence."
"Inspired by" meaning: "Based on, derived from, built around, constructed around
"inspiration" definition: "the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative:"

Hum.
I know that I myself am a bit of a 'word nerd', and tend to try to fully understand the meanings and applications of words. (The concept of "Allegory" currently afoot here and there on TTF is one example that I'm researching.)

But we can go to the point of "quibbling", which isn't a constructive thing.
I wonder if we approach that, if we try to separate "based on" and "inspired by" in their applications.

Personally, I believe RoP is most thoroughly 'based on' ('inspired by') the ideas of Tolkien and the occurrence of his presentation of the groundwork for such a fanfic as this is.

I do not think it would have been undertaken if it was not inspired by his groundwork, which gave them the basis from which they have built it.
(Yes, this last reveals the slight difference of meaning and application...intentionally...yet the difference isn't in the root, but in the outcome - the derivatives.)

Now... it is very true that there can be things "inspired by" a work that have nothing to do with that work. Neil Hancock's "Circle of Light" series is such a work.

The difference is, Neil Hancock borrowed NO characters, NO events, NO fundamentals of the fantasy work from which he borrowed. Thus it is only "inspired by".

However, RoP is clearly 'based on' because of all that it contains that is directly from Tolkien... without Tolkien's work and characters, it simply would not 'be'. It is not a 'parallel creation' at all.

So if we DO want to get to quibbling over words and driving them to their cores, I'm your man. let's go. Fisticuffs available here. 😁

But I'd really rather not fight.

For me, it comes back to the fact that none of the characters or events even remotely took place in the source material. RoP can take names from Middle-Earth history all they want but so far that's all they've done. That's not "based on" to me because they're not using the material as a basis, they're writing their own story using the same names.

 

[Ent]

the characters or events

OK then, here we go. 😁
Are 'the characters and events' the only thing upon which a 'basis' is formed?
Is it not "Middle-earth'? Does it not have Silmarils? Does it not have Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, men, Elrond, Galadriel, and much, much more?

So for me and my opinion, this is Based On.
Were it not so, the extent of the plagiarism here would open Amazon to lawsuit.
Thus it must be declared to be 'based on' (as it rightly is).

I understand your point - and your statement "for me it comes back to" however.

We are just looking at it from two different definitions, and I must go with what I believe to be the 'legal' and 'official' one.

 

[ZehnWaters]

OK then, here we go. 😁
Are 'the characters and events' the only thing upon which a 'basis' is formed?
Is it not "Middle-earth'? Does it not have Silmarils? Does it not have Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, men, Elrond, Galadriel, and much, much more?

Dungeons and Dragons has Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, & Men. This happened with Mass Effect when it moved to Andromeda. We're getting into the stage where it's a Ship of Theseus. How much can you strip away and change before it stops being "Tolkien" and "Middle-Earth"?

So for me and my opinion, this is Based On.
Were it not so, the extent of the plagiarism here would open Amazon to lawsuit.
Thus it must be declared to be 'based on' (as it rightly is).

I understand your point - and your statement "for me it comes back to" however.

We are just looking at it from two different definitions, and I must go with what I believe to be the 'legal' and 'official' one.

View attachment 16284

And at that point we must simply agree to disagree. ^_^