Who penned the tales aside from The Hobbit in Tolkien's world?

[Þráinn Þórhallsson]

So Tolkien always intended for his stories to have been written by characters in universe however as far as I know the Hobbit which in universe is named ''There and Back again by Bilbo Baggins'' is the only book who's in universe author we know, hench why there can be two versions of the chapters riddles in the dark without one really being a plot hole but just a less accurate retelling. However did Tolkien ever clear up who wrote the other stories?

No matter who the in universe author Children of Húrin is it is probably the among the least accurate stories then, since although not the oldest and therefor not the most distant memory or story with the most accurate accounts lost to time it is still a story that most would not have been around to write down how it all went down by memory given how it ends.

 

[Starbrow]

Frodo wrote The Lord of the Rings. I think Merry wrote the Rohan section in the Appendices. I'm not sure about the rest.

 

[Olorgando]

I would guess that Elrond at Rivendell, with a possible library located there, would be a major source at least for the Beren and Lúthien as well as the Tuor and Idril Great Tales, as Elrond was descended from both pairs - those "Translations from Elvish" that Bilbo compiled in Rivendell. Túrin is the most difficult case. Part of his story took place in Doriath, so could have been recorded by survivors. There might have been survivors from Nargothrond to cover that period, and of the people in the Forest of Brethil for this last phase. Here the difficulty lies in the fact that the population of Brethil was composed entirely of humans, so how did these tales find their way to the Elves? And the ending of the Children of Húrin with the aged Húrin and Morwen had no witnesses ...

 

[Elthir]

We know that there was a Numenorean tale of at least part of the story of Turin: "No 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the Heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf." JRRT, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

And in my opinion, the lay written by Dirhaval -- Narn i Chin Hurin -- can still be in play in Tolkien's revised theory of transmission.

Dirhaval was a Mannish poet who lived at the Havens (Sirion) and gathered tidings of the House
of Hador, whether from Men or Elves, from remnants and fugitives of Hithlum, Dor-Lomin, Nargothrond, Doriath, Gondolin, and the realms of the sons of Feanor (here I'm blending the place names from version A & B of the text Ælfwine And Dirhaval, published in The War of the Jewels).

In version A, Dirhaval is also said to have learned much from a man named Andvir -- son of that Androg who was in Turin's band of outlaws -- Tolkien seems to have added this feature for transmission purposes, although the detail does not appear in version B, which text is briefer in general, in any case.

Anyway, in the older transmission scenario, the Anglo-Saxon poet Ælfwine translates Dirhaval's Lay into prose, and I don't see why in the revised scenario, we can't have a Numenorean render it into prose, which in my opinion meshes well enough with Tolkien's late description . . .

"As is seen in The Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works." JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, note 17, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Weaving in the author-published statement from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil as well.

 

[Þráinn Þórhallsson]

Thank, you guys so much for your input, anyway I am writing an essay in regards to this among other things so if it is not to much to ask could you provide me with sources as well

 

[Olorgando]

"As is seen in The Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works." JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, note 17, The Peoples of Middle-Earth.

It won't surprise you that I restate my dim view on JRRT's later writings.

Things being compiled in Númenor (most likely early in its history) are all very fine. But he babbles (I can't use a less harsh term here) about "four great tales", the fourth presumably being the "Lay of Eärendel" or something of the sort, supposedly the longest of the four. What exists for it is perhaps a page or so of scribbling which make it clear to me that JRRT would have been incapable of writing it. Before Elwing appeared with the Silmaril, Eärendel is supposed to have explored a good part of the planet - even have dispatched of Ungoliant in some obscure squiggle. This would have taken Eärendel to places outside of the M-e JRRT had described up to that time. Forget it.

And how are works compiled in Númenor supposed to have survived its downfall? "The shadow falls on Númenor" is 1800 Second Age. 2251 we then have "Rebellion and division of the Númenóreans begins". 1,004 years later Ar-Pharazôn seizes the scepter, 7 year later A-P takes Sauron "prisoner". One thing all authoritarian / totalitarian rulers have in common is a concerted effort to destroy historical documents that make them look bad. Sauron had round about half a century in Númenor in which to go at this task.

There is one feasible line of transmission, starting in the year 600 SA when the first Númenórean ships appeared on the coasts on M-e. One place they would have frequented were the Grey Havens, ruled by Gil-galad in the SA, Cirdan afterwards. Later in Númenórean history only the Faithful came to these ports. Elrond lived here too, before he retreated to (what was to become) Rivendell in 1697 SA before Sauron's onslaught on Eregion, then almost all of Eriador. After Sauron got his backside kicked out of Eriador in 1701 SA, Elrond had 1,700 years in that age to view and edit any garbled "mannish traditions" that may have been collected in Rivendell - and never mind roughly 3,000 years of the Third Age. He would have preserved them - I'm thinking first edition of TH here - but they would have had annotations in the sense of "ah ... no ..." attached to them.

JRRT's "mannish tradition for the Silmarillion" is one of his weakest ideas in the legendarium.

 

[Elthir]

. . . about "four great tales", the fourth presumably being the "Lay of Eärendel" (edit for brevity) What exists for it is perhaps a page or so of scribbling which make it clear to me that JRRT would have been incapable of writing it. (edit for brevity) This would have taken Eärendel to places outside of the M-e JRRT had described up to that time. Forget it.

But Tolkien would not be bound by an already existing summary. If desired, he could simply write a new tale in accordance with the rest of his world. He could even write one "based on" Bilbo's (with Aragorn's addition) version of "Earendil was a mariner . . ." published in Many Meetings.

Or not.

As, and not that you said otherwise, Tolkien doesn't need a given text to actually "exist" (for modern readers) for it to be part of the internal transmission framework.

And how are works compiled in Númenor supposed to have survived its downfall?

" . . . and the Faithful put aboard their wives and their children, and their heirlooms, and great store of goods. Many things there were of beauty and power, such as the Numenoreans had contrived in the days of their wisdom, vessels and jewels, and scrolls of lore written in scarlet and black."

Include the Seven Stones and the scion of Nimloth. And it seems that Elendil himself could copy, or order a copy made, of something he wanted to save.

"The following account is an abbreviation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a copy apparently made in Numenor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such records as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth." JRRT, quote from II. Synopsis of Pengolodh's Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, Vinyar Tengwar 48

There is one feasible line of transmission, starting in the year 600 SA when the first Númenórean ships appeared on the coasts on M-e. (edit for brevity) ( . . .) Elrond had 1,700 years in that age to view and edit any garbled "mannish traditions" that may have been collected in Rivendell (. . .)

I see no great reason for Elrond to want to, or feel the need to, edit mannish traditions.

Especially by Bilbo's time, any mannish traditions hailing from ancient Numenor would be, in my opinion, considered antiquarian works of art, and I would expect Elrond's librarians to treat them as such. And anyone given leave to translate one or more of these works might want to stick to translating.

 

[Jimbo Baggins]

They’re writing books within books. Doctor Strange has something to say about this. But a lot of author’s do this: it’s the wont of the rote.

The Lord of the Rings is mannish.

 

[Elthir]

And how are works compiled in Númenor supposed to have survived its downfall? (edit for brevity) One thing all authoritarian / totalitarian rulers have in common is a concerted effort to destroy historical documents that make them look bad. Sauron had round about half a century in Númenor in which to go at this task.

Sauron doesn't seem to have done very well at destroying the Faithful Library though, at least according to (a slightly younger version of) this guy:

Olorgando once wrote (another thread): “Then Elros and his heirs could have learned much from Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa. But they'd have to have built up something akin to the Library of Congress to preserve this for later generations. (. . .) I don't quite see Elendil, Isildur and Anárion lugging a huge library with them on their nine ships. In that emergency, I'd think they have other priorities.”

Although maybe you meant that this library didn't include Sauron being naughty.



And with respect to Bilbo's translations of a mostly Mannish Silmarillion, to quote the mighty Zigûr of Barrow Downs:

"But why would that stop him from wanting to translate the Númenórean legends? I always thought that one of the reasons Bilbo did the "Translations from the Elvish" was because he was interested in the language and the stories; I never got the impression that "learning the truth about history" was ever a particular goal."

"(. . .) I feel like the untrue nature of the Númenórean legends being a problem for Bilbo would be like a modern person who was interested in Ancient Greek not wanting to work on Hesiod's Theogony because it's not a true account of the formation of the world, or perhaps to bring it closer to home an Old Norse enthusiast being uninterested in Völuspá for the same reason."

And there was much rejoicing.

 

[Olorgando]

Sauron doesn't seem to have done very well at destroying the Faithful Library though, at least according to (a slightly younger version of) this guy:

Olorgando once wrote (another thread): “Then Elros and his heirs could have learned much from Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa. But they'd have to have built up something akin to the Library of Congress to preserve this for later generations. (. . .) I don't quite see Elendil, Isildur and Anárion lugging a huge library with them on their nine ships. In that emergency, I'd think they have other priorities.”

While the Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa might have some incentive to visit Elros and his early descendants in Númenor, visiting the Grey Havens (or their predecessors) ruled by Gil-galad, with Cirdan and Elrond present, might very well have been higher on the priority list, the more so as the Second Age progressed and Elros's descendants got progressively grumpier. So Elrond would not have needed one scrap of writing from Númenor, and what was in his library for Bilbo to translate would have not contained anything polluted by mannish incomprehension.

And another tangential (what else? 😁 ) thought: Bilbo's work was called "Translations from (the?) Elvish", not "Translations from (the?) Adûnaic". 😈

 

[Elthir]

By the way, related to the idea of Sauron destroying stuff at least, there is this: "the Elvish tongues were proscribed by the rebel Kings, and Adûnaic alone was permitted to be used, and many of the ancient books in Quenya or in Sindarin were destroyed"
JRRT, Of Dwarves And Men

Okay "many" (and what were in these books to begin with), but certainly not all "story and song", for we also read: "The lore-masters among them learned also the High Eldarin tongue of the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world . . ." Akallabeth

And however much was destroyed or survived, I see no getting round the Tolkien-written idea that Elendil indeed saved lore from Numenor (as quoted in post 7), and it was Tolkien's later idea that:

"What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions . . . handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." JRRT Morgoth's Ring

And we can add another particular tale here, that of Beren and Luthien: "Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of Númenor concerning the world of old; . . ." Tolkien's revision to Quenta Silmarillion (the LQ2 text) -- his revison was "[the Noldor >] Númenor"

While the Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa might have some incentive to visit Elros and his early descendants in Númenor, visiting the Grey Havens (or their predecessors) ruled by Gil-galad, with Cirdan and Elrond present, might very well have been higher on the priority list, the more so as the Second Age progressed and Elros's descendants got progressively grumpier.

Here we seem to have Elves visiting Elves and Elrond Half-elven. In any event, Rivendell did contain Elvish lore, as well as Mannish traditions.

So Elrond would not have needed one scrap of writing from Númenor, and what was in his library for Bilbo to translate would have not contained anything polluted by mannish incomprehension.

But what in Arda need "need" have to do with it, in any case?

Shepherd: "I found an additional twenty texts in the Qumran Caves, and these are in really good shape." Librarian (of Wherever): "What . . . more old stuff? Nah. Thanks, but we don't need 'em.

Anyway, I'd think Elrond Half-elven, brother to the first King of Numenor and described (by Boromir) as "greatest of lore-masters" would want to keep some Mannish lore . . . even if he had no ties to Numenor!

And another tangential (what else? 😁 ) thought: Bilbo's work was called "Translations from (the?) Elvish", not "Translations from (the?) Adûnaic". 😈

As above from Akallabeth, but here with my different emphasis (regarding the Numenoreans): "The lore-masters among them learned also the High Eldarin tongue of the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world . . ."

And "Elven-tongues" (plural):

"The Elven-tongues were no longer used, nor permitted to be taught, but were maintained in secret by the Faithful; and the ships from Eressea came seldom and secretly to the west shores of Númenor thereafter" Unfinished Tales

Just for two examples.