Do the physical dimensions of 🐲Dragons rival the Valar's?

[Turin_Turambar]

As you all know, since all the valar are gods, they are taller and much greater than all races in size and length. For example, melkor is said to be as tall as a tower. So which race do you think is closest to the valar in size? I vote for the dragons, because when the ancalagon flew through the air, the span of its wings spanned the entire sky. It is also said that the glaurung, slain by Turin, was 500 meters long.

 

[Vorondil]

As you all know, since all the valar are gods, they are taller and much greater than all races in size and length. For example, melkor is said to be as tall as a tower.

The Valar can be as tall as they want to be.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Maiars and Balrogs are the same beings.

Besides, these beings (Valars and maiars) are more spiritual beings, then physical beings.
When they translete to physical presence, the biggest is definitely Morgoth (at the very beginning (before he lost his powers)), and close second is a Manwe, although I think Manwe never attempted to form himself in the physical world.

 

[Ent]

since all the valar are gods, they are taller and much greater than all races in size and length

The Valar are not really 'gods'. They are created beings, able to take various forms. Nor are they 'incredibly powerful' beyond all others. They are 'more powerful' individually, yes...but it is the 'mythology' of Tolkien's work, not the reality, seeming to make them so tremendously 'all powerful'. Keep in mind they feared the Numenoreans' great power and ability to wreak havoc and destruction in their own territory.

Yes, balrogs were corrupted Maiar. They chose to take a form 'seeming as a man, but larger'... one place noting 'twice as high as a man'. The reviews are somewhat mixed.

Other maiar, notably Saruman and Gandalf, took a normal (or even lesser) form (Gandalf appearing as a 'bent old man') in terms of size. Sauron was a bit larger than a normal human or elf, but not so outsized as people want to make him out to be.

But being essentially spiritual, to try to compare Valar or Maiar to those who can only be a physical form feels a bit odd.

Ents were beings inhabited by the 'spirits from afar' called of Yavanna's thought. They stood maybe 10-12 feet high... so similar to a balrog probably.

Of the choices given, the dragon would clearly be the largest in 'size and height' as Morgoth bred them to be so.

Speaking of Morgoth... (yes, he was a valar)... he was not only smaller than his dragons, but smaller than Ungoliant. He was not so large the gem in his crown could not be easily removed when he was put to sleep.

We give entirely too much 'size, power and height' to the Valar and Maiar as we do not recognize how exaggeration, enhancement and myth within Tolkien's intentionally mythological "former ages" purposely blows them out of proportion.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

The Valar are not really 'gods'. They are created beings, able to take various forms. Nor are they 'incredibly powerful' beyond all others. They are 'more powerful' individually, yes...but it is the 'mythology' of Tolkien's work, not the reality, seeming to make them so tremendously 'all powerful'. Keep in mind they feared the Numenoreans' great power and ability to wreak havoc and destruction in their own territory.

Yes, balrogs were corrupted Maiar. They chose to take a form 'seeming as a man, but larger'... one place noting 'twice as high as a man'. The reviews are somewhat mixed.

Other maiar, notably Saruman and Gandalf, took a normal (or even lesser) form (Gandalf appearing as a 'bent old man') in terms of size. Sauron was a bit larger than a normal human or elf, but not so outsized as people want to make him out to be.

But being essentially spiritual, to try to compare Valar or Maiar to those who can only be a physical form feels a bit odd.

Ents were beings inhabited by the 'spirits from afar' called of Yavanna's thought. They stood maybe 10-12 feet high... so similar to a balrog probably.

Of the choices given, the dragon would clearly be the largest in 'size and height' as Morgoth bred them to be so.

Speaking of Morgoth... (yes, he was a valar)... he was not only smaller than his dragons, but smaller than Ungoliant. He was not so large the gem in his crown could not be easily removed when he was put to sleep.

We give entirely too much 'size, power and height' to the Valar and Maiar as we do not recognize how exaggeration, enhancement and myth within Tolkien's intentionally mythological "former ages" purposely blows them out of proportion.

middle earth universe is the sum of all mythologies such as greek mythology, scandinavian mythology, egyptian mythology and english mythology. Tolkien created the middle earth universe to unite all mythologies under one roof. The purpose here is not to unite the mythologies as events, but to unite all mythological beings in a single universe. so it's okay to say gods to valar. Also, while I agree with you that the Numenoreans can defeat the Valar, most Tolkien fans think that the Valar can defeat the Numenorean army.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Keep in mind they feared the Numenoreans' great power and ability to wreak havoc and destruction in their own territory.

I think feared is too strong of a word.
Imho, even small elven force from Valinor could crush Numenorians, let alone Valars. Tulkas could crush them with his little finger.
I think Valars was worried that even a single life could be lost if they intervene, and since Numenor was an Illuvatar gift, they gladly step aside, and let Illuvatar deal with them.

Mogoth.... but smaller than Ungoliant...

Only after he lost big part of his initial strength.

Of the choices given, the dragon would clearly be the largest in 'size and height' as Morgoth bred them to be so.

Speaking of Morgoth... (yes, he was a valar)... he was not only smaller than his dragons...

I disagree.
When he first arrived on EA, I think he was the biggest being ever (larger even then the Acalagon the black)

Quote from Sillmarilion:
"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold".

This fan image depict this pretty well:

Also, while I agree with you that the Numenoreans can defeat the Valar, most Tolkien fans think that the Valar can defeat the Numenorean army.

LOL.
You serious?

Feanor with his sons and bodyguards would wipe out the whole Numenorian force.

 

[Ent]

middle earth universe is the sum of all mythologies such as greek mythology, scandinavian mythology, egyptian mythology and english mythology.

I appreciate what you're saying here, and its OK to consider it so.
Tolkien, however, did not think of it this way. His Valar and Maiar were, in his mind, as the biblical "Angelos"... (Angels, more properly, 'messengers').

He intentionally did not follow the patterns of others, being monotheistic and making his world an intentionally "Catholic" work (as he himself said).

So on this my own preference is to stick with Tolkien.

 

[Ent]

most Tolkien fans think that the Valar can defeat the Numenorean army.

LOL.
You serious?

Most Tolkien fans don't take Tolkien's own intent, words and work into consideration.
Thus, the huge misunderstandings.

Some of them are clearly stated above... based on the failure to grasp SIL as myth rather than history, though it contains ELEMENTS of historical truth, as all myth does.

But the point isn't worth discussing as it takes some time to clear the chaff away and get back to the wheat.
It's time we may engage in at some point... but I don't have the time at hand right now.

It's exactlhy why we come up with 20 foot balrogs, dragons that really are big enough to 'break the peaks of 3 mountains' when they fall, etc. We don't recognize the working of myth and how it plays out, growing, enhancing, outsizing, embellishing etc. on strengths, sizes, size of armies, powers, and so forth.

I'm certain Tolkien was quite amused by many things before he passed,, as he was the first to understand, the issues of 'myth,' how they work out, and how they're not understood.

It's why his TH and LoTR are more 'historical' and his SIL and other earlier age writings are stated to be more 'mythological.'

Yet each gets to choose how he applies that on his own... which was also Tolkien's intent.

(Even in LoTR for example, we have a balrog 'breaking the side of the mountain' when he's overthrown, clearly an embellishment as it's impossible. Sam, too, saying the Oliphaunt is 'as big as a house' is a matter of embellished perspective. The description of their size and uses doesn't even allow for such. It's how its PERCEIVED, not how it really is.)

Anyway, we can come back to all this later some day.
For now, we can all be happy where we're at.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Most Tolkien fans don't take Tolkien's own intent, words and work into consideration.
Thus, the huge misunderstandings.

Some of them are clearly stated above... based on the failure to grasp SIL as myth rather than history,

It doesn't matter if you exaggerate history events in myths, the hierarchy stays the same.. therefore, nobody should claim that army of people could defeat gods.. or angels...

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

His Valar and Maiar were, in his mind, as the biblical "Angelos"... (Angels, more properly, 'messengers').

The only beings he specified as "angeloi", as far as I know, were the Istari, sent as "messengers" to the peoples of Middle-earth.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I think feared is too strong of a word.
Imho, even small elven force from Valinor could crush Numenorians, let alone Valars. Tulkas could crush them with his little finger.
I think Valars was worried that even a single life could be lost if they intervene, and since Numenor was an Illuvatar gift, they gladly step aside, and let Illuvatar deal with them.



Only after he lost big part of his initial strength.


I disagree.
When he first arrived on EA, I think he was the biggest being ever (larger even then the Acalagon the black)

Quote from Sillmarilion:
"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold".

This fan image depict this pretty well:

LOL.
You serious?

Feanor with his sons and bodyguards would wipe out the whole Numenorian force.

Would Feanor's army wipe out the Numenoreans? are you really serious? I laugh at that. The Numenoreans were people who, even in Sauron's strongest time, brought all of Sauron's army and Sauron to their knees. The sum of the entire Noldor army may rival the Numenoreans. But only Feanor's army has no chance against Numenor.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I appreciate what you're saying here, and its OK to consider it so.
Tolkien, however, did not think of it this way. His Valar and Maiar were, in his mind, as the biblical "Angelos"... (Angels, more properly, 'messengers').

He intentionally did not follow the patterns of others, being monotheistic and making his world an intentionally "Catholic" work (as he himself said).

So on this my own preference is to stick with Tolkien.

yes i know tolkien designed his world as catholic. he quoted from other mythological myths. for example manwe looks like zeus in every way. ulmo looks like poseidon in every way etc. etc. but I actually read that Tolkien saw the biblical angels and the mythological gods as the same beings in the universe he created. I don't know how true.

 

[Ent]

but I actually read that Tolkien saw the biblical angels and the mythological gods as the same beings in the universe he created. I don't know how true.

We can find out, in time. A nifty project.
I'll be stuffy and hang on to my perspective they aren't considered "gods" by him due to his monothiestic approach to everything until I find out otherwise, though...
To him 'god' creates. (Eru). none of the Ainur or Maiar can create. they're all limited, created beings.

We'll discover how best to refer to them.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

We can find out, in time. A nifty project.
I'll be stuffy and hang on to my perspective they aren't considered "gods" by him due to his monothiestic approach to everything until I find out otherwise, though...
To him 'god' creates. (Eru). none of the Ainur or Maiar can create. they're all limited, created beings.

We'll discover how best to refer to them.

"none of the Ainur or Maiar can create."
but the aule alone created the dwarves. That is, he was able to create the race called dwarves. During the siege of Angband, Morgoth created the first dragon glaurung. So it would be a bit of a pretentious statement to say that whether the Valar are gods or not, they cannot create anything. Actually i think; They can create as long as the eru allows.

 

[d4rk3lf]

The Numenoreans were people who, even in Sauron's strongest time, brought all of Sauron's army and Sauron to their knees.

And only smaller part of the Noldor army (lead by Feanor) wiped out all of the army Morgoth prepared to conquer all middle earth.
Feanor died because of Balrogs, Fingolfin (with bigger part of the army) was still on the road, they were tired, but still they decimated Morgoth's orcs.
Do you think Sauron, ever had bigger army then his master Morgoth?

I know that Numenorians were very powerful in their prime, and could probably conquer all of the middle earth. But this is Second Age... Second league.

 

[Ent]

but the aule alone created the dwarves.

Aule 'made' the dwarves from existing materials.
He could only 'animate' his imitations one of them at a time.

It took Eru to 'give them life'.. i.e. 'create' them as a race, able to procreate, etc. and so forth.

Aule didn't create any more than any of the other Valar did.
All they could do was "adorn illuvatar's themes'. (Addorn means 'to make pretty, add to.' Embellish a bit.)

 

[Turin_Turambar]

And only smaller part of the Noldor army (lead by Feanor) wiped out all of the army Morgoth prepared to conquer all middle earth.
Feanor died because of Balrogs, Fingolfin (with bigger part of the army) was still on the road, they were tired, but still they decimated Morgoth's orcs.
Do you think Sauron, ever had bigger army then his master Morgoth?

I know that Numenorians were very powerful in their prime, and could probably conquer all of the middle earth. But this is Second Age... Second league.

The battle of Dagor-nuin-giliath does not mention how large Morgoth's orc army was. Also, while Feanor's army was fighting against Morgoth, trolls, wargs, werewolves had not yet been created, and these beings did not fight against Feanor's army. Only Orcs and Balrogs fought. However, in the second age, there were beings such as trolls, wargs, werewolves, fellbeasts and even oliphaunts in the strongest army of sauron. I know that noldor elves can defeat these different beings in sauron's army. But what I mean is that because of the size and strength of the army of Numenor, Sauron and his army surrendered without even a fight. Morgoth's armies never surrendered to the Noldor elves without a fight. There is a clear difference between numenor and noldor here.

 

[Vorondil]

During the siege of Angband, Morgoth created the first dragon glaurung.

We don't actually know whether Morgoth created dragons, or whether he simply corrupted an existing creature.

 

[Elthir]

 

[Ent]

We don't actually know whether Morgoth created dragons, or whether he simply corrupted an existing creature.

Welllllll, we kinda do. Morgoth was an Ainur / Valar. They can't create anything, being created beings themselves.
And I believe there's a revealing comment made in SIL... I'll go hunt it down as soon as I can here.