Unions of the Eldar and Atani

[Dustman]

It’s said that there were three unions of the Eldar and Atani, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen. Does anyone know why Earendel and Elwing are not included?

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

It’s said that there were three unions of the Eldar and Atani, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen. Does anyone know why Earendel and Elwing are not included?

Welcome to TTF, Dustman!

As for your question, those three unions were strictly between a full-blooded human and an Elf (/half-Maia, in Lúthien’s case), where as with Eärendil and Elwing, neither of them were fully one or the other. Eärendil was the son of Tuor and Idril, making him a Peredhel, half-human and half-Elf. Elwing was mostly Elven, but had some humanity in her as the daughter of Dior and Nimloth.

Dior himself was a Peredhel, being the son of Beren and Lúthien. Because Nimloth, Elwing’s mother, was fully an Elf, Elwing would have probably been 3/4 Elven, but she still had some human genes in her from her father’s side.

So, bloodline-wise, neither Ëarendil nor Elwing could fully be considered to be a part of the Atani or Eldar. They were each a mix of both.

 

[Radaghast]

A qualifier is needed there, however, since Elrond was the child of Eärendil and Elwing, but came to be considered a full Elf (despite being called Half-Elven), but that was due to a choice given to the children of Eärendil and Elwing (and their children) by Manwë. I don't think Dior had the choice, even if technically a Peredhel.

Oh, and welcome to the board, Dustman.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

A qualifier is needed there, however, since Elrond was the child of Eärendil and Elwing, but came to be considered a full Elf (despite being called Half-Elven), but that was due to a choice given to the children of Eärendil and Elwing (and their children) by Manwë. I don't think Dior had the choice, even if technically a Peredhel.

Oh, and welcome to the board, Dustman.

Ah, good point! That is true of Elrond, getting to make the decision. Being that he chose to become an Elf, it, in turn, gave Arwen the designation of being an Elf as well (until she chose to become mortal for Aragorn).

Though, since she was able to make the choice, was she considered a Peredhel as well, even though Elrond had become a full-Elf?

 

[Radaghast]

Yes, I believe so. That's how she was able to make the choice to stay with Aragorn, if I'm not mistaken.

It's interesting how little is said about Elros' children. Did they not get the choice? If so, why did none of them want to be immortal?

 

[Dustman]

Welcome to TTF, Dustman!

As for your question, those three unions were strictly between a full-blooded human and an Elf (/half-Maia, in Lúthien’s case), where as with Eärendil and Elwing, neither of them were fully one or the other. Eärendil was the son of Tuor and Idril, making him a Peredhel, half-human and half-Elf. Elwing was mostly Elven, but had some humanity in her as the daughter of Dior and Nimloth.

Dior himself was a Peredhel, being the son of Beren and Lúthien. Because Nimloth, Elwing’s mother, was fully an Elf, Elwing would have probably been 3/4 Elven, but she still had some human genes in her from her father’s side.

So, bloodline-wise, neither Ëarendil nor Elwing could fully be considered to be a part of the Atani or Eldar. They were each a mix of both.

Agreed. But it’s still not very satisfying. By the same token Aragorn could be said to have elvish blood as a descendant of Elros, and Arwen is part Maiar. Or is Aragorn descended from Elros? Was Elendil of that line?

 

[Radaghast]

Yes, Elendil and Aragorn are both of the line of Elros.

 

[Olorgando]

As per "Unfinished Tales", "Part Two: The Second Age", "III The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor", Elros's great-grandson Tar-Elendil's first child was a daughter, Silmarien. While her younger brother went on to be Númenor's fifth king Tar-Meneldur, Silmarien's son Valandil founded the line of the Lords of Andúnië, whose descendant was Elendil father of Isildur and Anárion. Aragorn is descended from both of these, and thus like Arwen descended from Melian the Maia. But while Arwen is, through Lúthien, Dior, Elwing, and Elrond, descended from Melian in the fifth generation, Aragorn has possibly 65 more generations separating him from Melian. So while Arwen would (statistically) be 1/32nd Maia, Aragorn's descent could have been further diluted by the factor one divided by (two to the 65th power). A number not even found in astronomy, IIRC.

... factor one divided by (two to the 65th power). A number not even found in astronomy, IIRC.

Oops! Sometimes it's not good to mix computer terminology with astronomy (if not a professional).
Two to the power of ten (1,024) is only approximately equivalent to ten to the power of three (1,000). That's kilobyte (anyone remember the term?).
With mega, giga etc. the deviations just get worse. But astronomers use powers of ten, not two - for visible objects etc. Here, the 65th power is not reached, either above or below the division line.
If they start (theoretically) counting the number of subatomic particles in the visible universe, the numbers do get utterly unimaginable ...

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Ah, good point! That is true of Elrond, getting to make the decision. Being that he chose to become an Elf, it, in turn, gave Arwen the designation of being an Elf as well (until she chose to become mortal for Aragorn).

Though, since she was able to make the choice, was she considered a Peredhel as well, even though Elrond had become a full-Elf?

Either Tolkien was really bad in biology or just didn't care.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345

 

[Starbrow]

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345

If this is true, then why does Tolkien include her marriage to Aragorn as one between the Elder and the Adani?

 

[Olorgando]

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345

If this is true, then why does Tolkien include her marriage to Aragorn as one between the Elder and the Adani?

Letter 345 was the last letter JRRT wrote in his life - the last one to be included in the original edition of "Letters", at least. A cattle breeder had asked for permission to use names from LotR, which JRRT was not happy with, offering to invent some Elvish-sounding names instead.
My guess is this could be an inconsistency due to the fact that JRRT never "finalized" his 'Silmarillion' tradition.

Strictly speaking, Lúthien was also half-Elven. And the "only" other "precisely" half-Elven was Eärendil. Dior, Elwing, Elros, Elrond, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were more mixed; Dior (statistically speaking) a quarter-Elf, the rest more than half.

My readings, and more so discussions here on TTF - with posts peppered with quotes of JRRT's writings from diverse sources - give me the impression that it was the admixture of human to Elven that gave the Valar headaches. Or rather, that Dior, Eärendil, Elwing, Elros and Elrond were considered mortal until Eärendil and Elwing managed to sail to Valinor. Only then, by dispensation from Eru, was Manwë able to give first Eärendil and Elwing, then Elros and Elrond, the choice of which of the two branches of the Eruhini they wanted to belong to. Eärendil and Elwing never set foot on Middle-earth again, which Elros and Elrond had never left up to that time. (JRRT never mentions whether Dior ended up in the Halls of Mandos.)

And the the asymmetry between the choices of Elros and Elrond. The former's decision was binding on all of his descendants. while the latter were bound to Elrond's remaining in Middle-earth. While he did so, they certainly lived the life of Elves, Elladan and Elrohir for 2,891 years until Elrond's departure, while Arwen was 111 (!!!) years younger than her brothers. Arwen then spent the next 120 years as Aragorn's queen - also not exactly a normal human lifespan, but then neither was Aragorn's.

A last thought: statistically Elrond was less Elven than his children. But JRRT never counted the union of Elrond and Celebrían among those between the two Kindreds ...

 

[Tar-Elenion]

If this is true, then why does Tolkien include her marriage to Aragorn as one between the Elder and the Adani?

My presumption would be that, because of the special dispensation she was given, she was accounted among the Eldar until she finalized her choice.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Tolkien doesn't seem to use the term "half-elf" in a strict sense. Arwen isn't "half-elf". Her lineage is far more complex. The same for Elrond.

As far as their nature, it seems they were Human unless given dispensation to choose Elf. Dior and Eärendil both seem to have been human. Any human/Avari elf union seem to be human (princes of Dol Amroth).