Who were the 💀Nazgul before they became wraiths?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

We know that the Nine fell under the dominion of Sauron from his lesser Rings, some sooner than others, but all fell in then end. But do we have any idea who these nine men were? I mean, were they once noble men of Gondor/Numenor, perhaps like Isildur once, only to be corrupted, or were they more like the corrupted Kings Men pre-fall of Numenor or perhaps Black Numenoreans post fall? Were they from Rohan or even Arnor? Were they Easterlings, Rhun men, or Haradarians (and perhaps that was how Sauron ensnared those kingdoms to his side by corrupting their leaders)?

I'm getting the impression that even Beren one-handed could not have resisted the effects of those NIne Rings, had he kept one, indefinitely and would have fallen at some point under Sauron's control, so the nine men need not have been all evil men. I mean, Sauron even tried to trick clearly good Elves into using his Three Rings to ensnare them too, and likewise for good dwarves with the Seven Dwarven Rings.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I think Tolkien, intentionally, and very cleverly hidden the origin of Nazgul's.
We have just some info on the Witch King (his wars after he become Nazgul), and just a few words about Khamul, and that he was easterling.

What you don't see, and don't know is often scarier, then what you do know well, and the similar principle is later used in the horror movies (often, antagonist are hidden (or their horribly crimes), and because they are hidden, they are scarier, because everyone basically imagines what he personally fear.
And there is also a mystery.. mysterious black hooded man on a black horse is way more interesting, and anticipating, then if you know all about him.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I think Tolkien, intentionally, and very cleverly hidden the origin of Nazgul's.
We have just some info on the Witch King (his wars after he become Nazgul), and just a few words about Khamul, and that he was easterling.

What you don't see, and don't know is often scarier, then what you do know well, and the similar principle is later used in the horror movies (often, antagonist are hidden (or their horribly crimes), and because they are hidden, they are scarier, because everyone basically imagines what he personally fear.
And there is also a mystery.. mysterious black hooded man on a black horse is way more interesting, and anticipating, then if you know all about him.

I do agree that having hidden main antagonists works well, as it did in Lord of the Rings with the mostly non-appearing Sauron as well as in Star Wars with the mostly non-appearing Darth Sidious. (Well, Sidious was Palpatine, but that wasn't revealed till about halfway through Episode III, just like we didn't found out that the Necromancer was Sauron until after the Hobbit was done and some distance into Fellowship of the Ring.)

However, just like we saw a bunch of Sidious's chief henchman Vader, and learned his backstory, I don't see what harm it would do in knowing if the Nazgul were always evil, or if, like Vader, they were more tragic villains. I mean, we got the full backstory of Smeagol/Gollum, would it have hurt to find out more about some of the Nazgul?

 

[Olorgando]

JRRT described very little of the side of evil. No "tourist tours" through Utumno, or Angband, or Barad-dûr, or Minas Morgul, or Orthanc.
As his writing, within the legendarium, is supposed to be from Elvish and human and Hobbit sources, it's no wonder, as none of the "authors" had ever been inside on of these variations of Hell. But JRRT most likely didn't relish imagining any of the horrors that were going on on the other side.
I just this year (a bit over a month ago) read C.S. Lewis's 1942 "The Screwtape Letters" (or rather a later edition with additions). Near the end of the book, after the last letter of the original book, Lewis states "Though I had never written anything more easily, I never wrote with less enjoyment." It was an intellectual challenge to "twist one's mind into the diabolical attitude", but "The strain produced a sort of spiritual cramp." I doubt JRRT would even have attempted such an intellectual challenge.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'm reminded of Tolkien's statement in Appendix F II, "On Translation":

But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

@Olorgando A bit off-topic, but would you recommend the Screwtape Letters? I have heard of it many times, but have never delved into it.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

@Olorgando A bit off-topic, but would you recommend the Screwtape Letters? I have heard of it many times, but have never delved into it.

I'm not he, but I would highly recommend it! I own it myself. It's quite the powerful, thought-provoking piece. Well worth the read! 😄

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

I am mostly familiar with it via the music group The Oh Hellos album Dear Wormwood, of which many of the songs are inspired by the book.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Oh very interesting! I didn't know about that.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

It is a great album, especially if you are into alternative folk. Sorry for derailing the thread!

 

[Radaghast]

You want derailment? I'll show you derailment!

The Screwtape Letters was pictured in the video for Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me by U2. The reason I remember that is because I started reading it about the time the video came out. I don't remember if I ever finished the book. I suppose I will; it's not a very long book.

 

[ZehnWaters]

JRRT described very little of the side of evil. No "tourist tours" through Utumno, or Angband, or Barad-dûr, or Minas Morgul, or Orthanc.
As his writing, within the legendarium, is supposed to be from Elvish and human and Hobbit sources, it's no wonder, as none of the "authors" had ever been inside on of these variations of Hell. But JRRT most likely didn't relish imagining any of the horrors that were going on on the other side.
I just this year (a bit over a month ago) read C.S. Lewis's 1942 "The Screwtape Letters" (or rather a later edition with additions). Near the end of the book, after the last letter of the original book, Lewis states "Though I had never written anything more easily, I never wrote with less enjoyment." It was an intellectual challenge to "twist one's mind into the diabolical attitude", but "The strain produced a sort of spiritual cramp." I doubt JRRT would even have attempted such an intellectual challenge.

My understanding was he didn't enjoy writing about such dark things and was purposefully avoiding it when he could, though I can't seem to think of where I remember him mentioning this. I believe it was in response to letter and in NoME, though I could be wrong.

I'm reminded of Tolkien's statement in Appendix F II, "On Translation":

Does he mean in sound or in intent and verbage? i.e. they swore and used derogatory language?

 

[Aldarion]

Does he mean in sound or in intent and verbage? i.e. they swore and used derogatory language?

Almost certainly the latter, considering that the "models are easy to find".

I doubt models of actual Black Speech are easy to find.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

they swore and used derogatory language?

Yes, that's how I understood it.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Almost certainly the latter, considering that the "models are easy to find".

I doubt models of actual Black Speech are easy to find.

Yes, that's how I understood it.

Okay. He'd mentioned such things before, as I stated before. Now that I think about it I think he was talking about sexual assault. He didn't want to get into it and just left it vague.

 

[Olorgando]

@Olorgando A bit off-topic, but would you recommend the Screwtape Letters? I have heard of it many times, but have never delved into it.

Back from a weekend away ...

Yes.

In my opinion it clearly shows how CSL felt "The Antagonist" would work.
There are details where I would disagree with CSL, as I would disagree with details of JRRT's collected writings, but I still find it interesting to read such viewpoints.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

JRRT described very little of the side of evil. No "tourist tours" through Utumno, or Angband, or Barad-dûr, or Minas Morgul, or Orthanc.
As his writing, within the legendarium, is supposed to be from Elvish and human and Hobbit sources, it's no wonder, as none of the "authors" had ever been inside on of these variations of Hell. But JRRT most likely didn't relish imagining any of the horrors that were going on on the other side.
I just this year (a bit over a month ago) read C.S. Lewis's 1942 "The Screwtape Letters" (or rather a later edition with additions). Near the end of the book, after the last letter of the original book, Lewis states "Though I had never written anything more easily, I never wrote with less enjoyment." It was an intellectual challenge to "twist one's mind into the diabolical attitude", but "The strain produced a sort of spiritual cramp." I doubt JRRT would even have attempted such an intellectual challenge.

Orthanc wasn't evil, per se. It was more like Minas Morgul, though, in this case, the builders of Orthanc willingly gave control of it to Saruman. Also, unlike Minas Morgul, it doesn't seem to be able to be destroyed, and, I think, though Isengard had to be cleansed and smashed by the Ents and Minas Morgul was best destroyed and rebuilt, it seems that not only was Orthanc not really destroyable, at least with anything they had with them (and they had Ents, so likely even Grond wouldn't knock it down.) and control fell back to that of Gondor after Saurman gave Treebeard back the keys.

Also, Gandalf had been inside of Dol Guldor, a very evil place. And Beren and Luthien did go into Angband.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

@BalrogRingDestroyer I don't know that it was ever mentioned that the builders of Orthanc willingly gave it to Saruman. It was built my the men of Numenor during the height of their power during the Second Age and later abandoned or overrun, as so many of their strongholds later were. The Istari didn't arrive in M-E until the beginning of the Third Age, and by the time that Saruman found and took Orthanc for his own it would have been empty for some time.

At least that is how I understood it.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

@BalrogRingDestroyer I don't know that it was ever mentioned that the builders of Orthanc willingly gave it to Saruman. It was built my the men of Numenor during the height of their power during the Second Age and later abandoned or overrun, as so many of their strongholds later were. The Istari didn't arrive in M-E until the beginning of the Third Age, and by the time that Saruman found and took Orthanc for his own it would have been empty for some time.

At least that is how I understood it.

The Appendix says Saruman was given the keys to Orthanc as a friend in T.A. 2759. Rohan was behind that, were they not?

 

[Olorgando]

Minas Morgul (formerly Ithil) had been under the control of the Nazgûl for over 1000 years by the time the One Ring was destroyed, while Saruman had been in control of Orthanc for 260 years. But JRRT provides next to no information about what Orthanc looked like inside, and pretty exactly zero information about Minas Morgul inside. Hardly more for Dol Guldur. Angband? Carcharoth is at the entrance both in and out, L&B somehow get to Morgoth's throne room (ditto for the way out), a very vague description of the throne room ...

I'll put it this way: fans of the "Gothic" persuasion in whatever art forms, were they to scour JRRT's writings for hints of how to build any of the "baddie hideaways" as "cool" tourist attractions for the like-minded must be tearing their hair at the near-vacuum of information JRRT provided.

(P.S. perhaps tearing hair is a run-of-the-mill procedure for Gothic "coiffure" - I don't have the foggiest notion about how some of these hair creations come about. And that's not limited to the Gothic set! 🤯 )