✅ done Would you want a calendar feature for the forum?

[Manwe]

Hi,

I've been thinking if we should create a "Calendar" for the forum where we can add events that have happened in the Tolkienverse.

We could then from this data create a "what happened this day in middle-earth"-widget, as well as discussion threads around the date.

From a user point of view, the following could be filled out when creating an "event":

• Age (First, Second, Third, "Real-world")
  • Here I might need help with what ages we should include, and what we should call "our age" (for events like Tolkien born, movies released, etc)
• Year
• Month (optional if unknown)
• Date (optional if unknown)
• Title of the event
• Short description (optional)

We could then have browseable calendars like:

• What happened F.A. 339
  • This page would list all events in chronological order for that age + year
• What happened today (or any date) in Tolkienverse
  • List of events, grouped and sorted by Age, Month etc

I'm also thinking that similar to how the wiki auto-links to pages, we could make mentions like "F.A. 123" link to the calendar page for that year.

How does this sound? Is there something I'm missing that would be useful?

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

I like this idea, it sounds fun! It would certainly help me to have an easier way of keeping track of what happened in the various years, and it would make it easier for the forum community to anticipate fun events like Bilbo's birthday.

 

[Ent]

I like this idea, it sounds fun! It would certainly help me to have an easier way of keeping track of what happened in the various years, and it would make it easier for the forum community to anticipate fun events like Bilbo's birthday.

Agreed... and frankly, it could become pretty deep. Like the dates the fellowship arrived in Rivendell, were assaulted on Weathertop, and such. The date Boromir was killed, yadda yadda.

We should be aware it could represent a LOT of work... but 'out there' in the world are a few calendars available, with much information, but without 'link' capability and such to help with study/research.

Such a thing could actually help TTF be 'set apart' from other Wikis in a unique way... providing more attraction for other users.

"Shelob's Web" it could well become, with its strands into Wiki, posts, poetry, etc.. anywhere we would choose to put a date. Much creativity here.

I've been thinking if we should create a "Calendar"

Ent casts a 'yes' vote, if it can be reasonably done.
Then we just need to determine how to get it populated, and folks willing to help participate in its development. (Unless there's some magic I'm not yet aware of to populate it.)

 

[Ent]

Argh. This suggestion from @mazzly is very difficult for me.
Between the Wiki and this, if he goes there, I REALLY want to get to just a part time job now, so I can devote some serious time to such an endeavor. I'm just not in a position to actually retire yet, or I'd alredy be there.... and I've not found a suitable part-time job.

Can one imagine retiring into actually doing what they love? Writing, research, support, helps for others... What a dream..!
I need to accelerate my search for part-time work.

 

[Vorondil]

I think its a great idea.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I like the idea and maybe we could include a widget for the side that displays the events + links to the wiki for related articles

 

[Manwe]

Okay great, I've actually starting writing an add-on for this, and I really want to make it somewhat integrated into the wiki so that it both links from the wiki to the specific dates, as well as the texts in the "event calendar" also links to the wiki

 

[Manwe]

Then we just need to determine how to get it populated

I'm not sure if there are any "ready sources" where we could automatically import info, but we have e.g. the https://thetolkien.forum/wiki/The-Third-Age page where we already have a good collection of some things that someone then needs to move over (I'll probably do a couple of them in the beginning, just to test the features are working etc)

As for getting members motivated to contribute and add info to it we could add a "Calendar contributions" to https://thetolkien.forum/members/ as well as maybe some badges for this...

I'm also a bit thinking we might need to allow some simple categorizations like birth/deaths/others(ideas?) so we can "put them separately" as those can otherwise become quite many and drown out other info in the calendar...

 

[Olorgando]

A primary source would seem to me to be Appendix B, which runs to 17 pages in my 2002 hardcover (25 pages in my 1980's paperback).
Brian Sibley's "The Fall of Númenor" could be helpful, combining as it does Appendix B for the Second Age with Appendix A and "The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor" from "Unfinished Tales".

As to the multiple variants of "Annals" spread throughout HoMe - looks like something to give a pass, considering the thicket of commentary, foot- and end-notes.

 

[Ent]

simple categorizations like birth/deaths/others(ideas?)

1. Births,
2. Deaths,
3. Battles,
4. Events, (what was the date when Pippin threw the stone into the well?)
5. Arrivals/Departures (which could be included in 'events', but 'events' is likely to be our busiest category, so ability to see these separately may be nice) stuff like what year did Gandalf arrive, when did Bilbo get to the Lonely Mountain, etc.)

Will it be possible to assign two categories? For example, "When did the Fellowship depart Lothlorien" is both an event, and an arrival/departure.

Events is, by far, going to be the largest category, so if someone is looking specifically for 'arrivals and departures', it might be nice to separate those out.

Arrivals/departures will almost always also be 'events', but many 'events' will have nothing to do with 'arrivals and departures.'

But I opine we may not want to 'categorize' it too much farther than the above, myself...
And, we need to be aware there will, for some things, be a 'difference of opinion' over the dating.

Also, we probably want to standardize on the dating by the Age, but when we get to the beginning of Shire Reconing, also include the include the Shire Reconing date

And, would there be an option to see 'the entire calendar in date order'?
I think one of the key features of such a calendar is the ability to see the entire chronology from FA1 (and the unknown before) to the early years into the FA.

Similar to the "Tale of Years" provided in LoTR appendix. But ours could/should get much more comprehensive. We've got all we need to do so.

So if we could see 'the whole calendar' as well as the 'category breakdowns' by choice, or flick of a checkbox, I think it would be helpful to all.

Added feature: the 'category breakdowns' allow us to more quickly scan the categories separately, as you suggest, to see what we may be missing, still needing to be added.

As you note, the 'whole calendar' can/will get quite 'busy.'

However, can we imagine how beneficial this will be for writers of various kinds, who want to 'tie events together' or even just know dates of events, if they're writing fanfics or such related to the Canon? It could end up being quite a time-saver for some.

(Such as a certain Ent, when/as he's working on Vol 1 Peregrin Took: My Road, and Vol. II: Elessar, Architect of the Fourth Age. A little less needed in Vol. III After Elessar, but will still come in handy for it when areas of 'historical reference' are in view.)

 

[Ent]

maybe we could include a widget for the side that displays the events + links to the wiki for related articles

Something like this would be great too if possible.

We may need to be sure we hold to the standardization for showing the ages, like TA 319, FA 212, SR 125 etc.
A question becomes 'with or without a space' in the dating for the search maybe? Do we need to be sure our Wiki team 'standardizes' how they list dates going forward?

Also,

links from the wiki to the specific dates, as well as the texts in the "event calendar" also links to the wiki

1. Will it also do automated links to 'key words', like of "boromoir' is mentioned, will it be tagged so a click on it moves the person to the Boromir article in the Wiki?

2. Will it be able to do a search on 'threads' as well, so if a date or name or whatever is mentioned in a thread (which would be linked too) it can show a picture of the available threads for review?

(I think this goes to Erestor's comment above about the widget. But that widget could get quite long, for some dates/names. Maybe there's a feature to 'click here for references available' and a 'widgit' pops up...)

don't know the extent of integration and presentation this could provide, so just fishing here...

 

[Manwe]

1. Births,
2. Deaths,
3. Battles,
4. Events, (what was the date when Pippin threw the stone into the well?)
5. Arrivals/Departures (which could be included in 'events', but 'events' is likely to be our busiest category, so ability to see these separately may be nice) stuff like what year did Gandalf arrive, when did Bilbo get to the Lonely Mountain, etc.)

Will it be possible to assign two categories? For example, "When did the Fellowship depart Lothlorien" is both an event, and an arrival/departure.

Events is, by far, going to be the largest category, so if someone is looking specifically for 'arrivals and departures', it might be nice to separate those out.

Arrivals/departures will almost always also be 'events', but many 'events' will have nothing to do with 'arrivals and departures.'

But I opine we may not want to 'categorize' it too much farther than the above, myself...
And, we need to be aware there will, for some things, be a 'difference of opinion' over the dating.

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I think it should be an optional field, and only be used to make more "structured" data, and when selected it would also allow to enter a "subject" for the category..

Then if we have categories like born/died and there exists entries for both on the same subject (e.g. Gimli), we can also calculate the age of the character when they died.
Also, we probably need a "sailed to the west" category.

But I would suggest we don't create too many categories, unless they can add some value by allowing us to calculate e.g. age, or place the items a bit separately in the list of events.

Another possibility is War started, War ended, Battle started, Battle ended, but not sure if it adds much extra value for categorizations...

And, would there be an option to see 'the entire calendar in date order'?

By having all the data in order, we can then create a "full timeline" or similar 👍

We may need to be sure we hold to the standardization for showing the ages, like TA 319, FA 212, SR 125 etc.
A question becomes 'with or without a space' in the dating for the search maybe? Do we need to be sure our Wiki team 'standardizes' how they list dates going forward?

Yes, I've been thinking `YT 1`, `YS 1` (These are first age), `SA 2`. `TA 3`, `FO 4` (could also show SR date)..
And as for with/without space, we would probably want with space, but for autolinking I think we can make it automagicall handle variations like `TA 1`, `TA1`, `T.A. 1`

1. Will it also do automated links to 'key words', like of "boromoir' is mentioned, will it be tagged so a click on it moves the person to the Boromir article in the Wiki?

2. Will it be able to do a search on 'threads' as well, so if a date or name or whatever is mentioned in a thread (which would be linked too) it can show a picture of the available threads for review?

1. I'm hoping it will be possible, just need to discuss with the authors of VaultWiki how I can achieve this.. I also want to make so that age mentions in the wiki pages actually link back to the calendar

2. Hmm, not sure what you mean by "review"... I've been thinking of having the "similar threads" widget to show for individual event pages, but maybe for "year pages" we could have a list of threads that actually mention the year? 🤔

(I think this goes to Erestor's comment above about the widget. But that widget could get quite long, for some dates/names. Maybe there's a feature to 'click here for references available' and a 'widgit' pops up...)

Yeah, we probably need to limit it to show X first things (and only the "title" but not "summary"), then a text like "Y more events...", here is where the death/birth categorizations might come in handy, as we can in the widget combine those into "5 deaths" or similar, and by clicking that it opens the calendar page for the date to show full info with summaries, etc..

---

One question that arose in my head: do we want to call this a "calendar" or a "timeline"? 🤔 (or some other fancy word that fits our site?)

 

[Halasían]

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion at hand, but Encyclopedia of Arda has a 'Chronicle' function where date ranges can be inputted to get the events within the parameters. So maybe 'Chronicle' is the word?

I'm kind of excited about this project!

 

[Ent]

So maybe 'Chronicle' is the word?

Or maybe 'annals' I see a lot..

Chronicles of the Ages
Annals of the Ages
Chronicles (or Annals) of Middle-earth

Annals of Arda (and beyond)

Anyway, @mazzly, it does sound like you're all over this with 'the right stuff' so... looking forward to what can be done..!

 

[Olorgando]

Do we need to be sure our Wiki team 'standardizes' how they list dates going forward?

One thing that sets alarm bells shrilling in my mind is the DD.MM.YYYY vs. MM.DD.YYYY disagreement in dating days and months. I've had to deal with it, having lived in the US 1966-75, and in Germany afterwards. My personal favorite is the YYYY.MM.DD variant, as it starts with the big stuff on the left and gets progressively smaller to the right. Germany's "system" for the two-digit numbers is daffy, and seems to have been used in English for a while, too, as I recall that line from an old song "four and twenty blackbirds". I also stumbled across quite a few such "Germanisms" in Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations" from the late 18th century in England.

 

[Ent]

I'm assuming the dating won't be required to be 'full/complete dates'.
for example, Gandalf arrived in M-e in "about 1,000 TA" - there are a bunch of these sorts of things, especially for FA and SA.

On the other hand, especially in the latter TA and FA, which are intentionally more 'historical' rather than 'mythological', we can pin many, many things down to a specific date.

Anyway, I don't think I can have any thoughts others haven't already conceived, so I'll bow out of 'commenting' at this point, and have more to say later perhaps.

 

[Manwe]

I'm assuming the dating won't be required to be 'full/complete dates'.
for example, Gandalf arrived in M-e in "about 1,000 TA" - there are a bunch of these sorts of things, especially for FA and SA.

On the other hand, especially in the latter TA and FA, which are intentionally more 'historical' rather than 'mythological', we can pin many, many things down to a specific date.

Anyway, I don't think I can have any thoughts others haven't already conceived, so I'll bow out of 'commenting' at this point, and have more to say later perhaps.

Yes exactly, I've currently made it so that only the year is required, while month and day are optional 👍

I might need to add a "circa"-checkbox for the year if we want to indicate that the year is not exact, but that can be added later if needed also, doesn't have to be in the first version

 

[Ent]

You are a man of might and wisdom, sir @mazzly.
Thank you for your work to make this a great and improving site.

 

[Manwe]

A little sneak peak into the current progress of the calendar add-on

Any thoughts that arise from this form? The types are maybe a bit overlapping, but not sure if it matters too much...

I've been a bit also thinking that we might want to be able to "link" various events together, e.g. "The ring is destroyed" is closely related to "Gollum dies" and would be nice if we would get them to show up together when browsing the various events... Similar if e.g. characters dies in some battle, it would be nice if those "death" events showed up when browsing the battle events also

 

[Ent]

1. Am I right in seeing this as 'very date pecific' ??

In other words, using Aragorn as an example, we'll do one entry and 'save' for Aragorn's birth, another and 'save' for his death, another for the date he reclaims the crown, another for the date he traverses the Paths of the Dead, etc. ?

So where our Wiki gives a 'summary' potentially speaking to all those things in one place, this gives us a 'date by date' picture instead...

If so, Is there a way in this calendar to enter a 'character name' like 'Aragorn' and all the dates inclusive of his name pop onto a select list for us? Or is the calendar itself strictly 'date driven' in terms of 'searches'.

OR: are we limited just to entries on the subjects showing under the "Character" thingy there...

If we're limited to what's under the 'select list' is it possible to add an "other" category for stuff like "Quickbeam - helps Treebeard and other ents tear the walls of Isengard down" (on this particular date.)

So if someone enters a 'date range' (if that's possible) to see 'what's going on', they'd have a selection of all the dates entered during that range and see what everybody is doing everywhere at that same time?

(am I asking for too much?)

2. how many "related subjects" entries are possible to stick in?


That's all I've got for now. Need more time to ponder to come up with more questions...