Let's Talk About Middle-Earth as if It Is Real.

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Tolkien is the Father of Modern Fantasy as we know it. He labored over every word of his works as a historian and linguist, bringing Arda into being as we read about it today, as if it were a real time in our world of old. Tolkien himself has said he does not feel he entirely made up Middle-Earth. We know Middle-Earth's history is written as a mythological history of the early days of Earth. Often though, mythology is founded upon truth.

So let's take a step back and discuss Middle-Earth as if it is real. What are the implications of this in our lives, how does this shape our viewing of these worlds collided, and how do we reconcile Tolkien's legendarium to this life as we know it?

 

[Ent]

Hum. You wish to go deep and wide.
To a certain extent, this is the thrust of my 3-book series, Peregrin Took: My Road, Elessar, Architect of the Fourth Age, and After Elessar.
It moves Tolkien’s world directly into the Age of Man and the decline becoming, ultimately, who we are today.
There is nothing of Tolkiens work which does not apply…. He was working from, expressing, and pointing to, ‘real life, real people, real emotional, political and religious issues and problems,’ and more. In short… the fundamentals of ‘human nature’ as they work themselves out, individually, socially, politically and etc.

That said, to go into detail would be a matter of a great deal of discussion.
Tolkien laid the foundation of all that was, was to unfold, what we would become, and now is.

I’ll leave it here for now.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

You wish to go deep and wide.

🎶 Deeeep and wide! Deeeep and wide! There's a fountain flowing deep and wiiiide! 🎶

Okay sorry, had to shake off the Sunday School song vibes.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

To a certain extent, this is the thrust of my 3-book series, Peregrin Took: My Road, Elessar, Architect of the Fourth Age, and After Elessar.
It moves Tolkien’s world directly into the Age of Man and the decline becoming, ultimately, who we are today.
There is nothing of Tolkiens work which does not apply…. He was working from, expressing, and pointing to, ‘real life, real people, real emotional, political and religions issues and problems,’ and more. In short… the fundamentals of ‘human nature’ as they work themselves out, individually, socially, politically and etc.

I thank you for your input! There is so much which can be said of how Tolkien's works connect, as you mention... Further evidence Middle-Earth is truly real.

 

[Ent]

the Sunday School song vibes

Well, if I were young enough to get to Book 13 in my series, we’d bump into them again.
But I suspect After Elessar is about as far as I’ll get before I look at rose roots rather than their petals.

 

[Annatar]

The fact that Tolkien's translations of the Red Book (which he somehow came across and which he was able to translate adequately thanks to his enormous philological knowledge) actually reflect a time more than 6000 years ago and, above all, real events in our world, has already been discussed and proven in detail elsewhere.

We all know that the shape of the earth changed, especially after the fall of Numenor. We know what Middle-earth has looked like since then. What we don't know is when the next cataclysm took place, creating the Mediterranean and leading to the fall of Gondor as we know it from the Fourth Age, and at some point leading to the rise of the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Crete. And what about the menhirs and pyramids that can be found all over the world, some of them under the sea?

I think Erich van Däniken and Graham Hancock are on the trail of these mysteries right now, even if they may still misinterpret some of them... In any case, there are many indications that point to an Atlantis or Lemuria, where technologically and spiritually advanced civilizations are said to have lived. As connoisseurs of Tolkien, we of course know that this does not mean aliens from outer space or other dimensions, but rather Numenoreans and/or Elves.

So it is quite clear that mainstream science is hiding the truth, and there is plenty of evidence in the alternative media that archaeologically significant finds are being deliberately suppressed or ignored which prove that Middle-earth is real.

 

[Will Whitfoot]

So it is quite clear that mainstream science is hiding the truth, and there is plenty of evidence in the alternative media that archaeologically significant finds are being deliberately suppressed or ignored which prove that Middle-earth is real.

Indeed! And those of us of mixed Hobbit and Dwarfish ancestry have passed the true tale down among us for millenia, told on cold winter nights by the fireside, or during sparkling lightning bug romps in summertime. As lovely as these tales are however... we ultimately must face the oliphaunt in the room to explain the continual reanimation of the Dark Lord... Will they have to stand alone? Can they? Who is this demon of the elder world that comes again every generation to haunt our dreams and aspirations? Morgoth and Sauron both, we are told, are destroyed. But is this totally true? We can see that orcs, goblins, and perhaps other unknown denizens of evil continue to come forth from their hiding in the deep places of the world to thwart the ambitions of the Valar. .. Who do we turn to in this, our hour of need, when all the world seems to be crumbling? Where is the Aragorn of our time? For my friends, as Robert Plant foretold, we truly face the Battle of Evermore, now, in our time. It is neither fantasy nor hyperbole to compare our plight to the existential threat faced by our heroes in the tales we love. That this is true only makes the lessons of the tales the more heartfelt. For it is we who must now stand against the evil of our times. Remember always that the power of Good will eventually triumph over the weakness of evil. The light of Truth banishes the darkness of lies. The glory of Beauty will always wash away the stain of ugliness. Here in what remains of The Shire, we sing songs of hope and deliverance, knowing that these events may not come about in our own time, and yet that we must strive ever towards them. It is the direction that we choose that is important. Our choices matter, even in small things. Ever forward, ever upward, striving always towards the light of the Two Trees. And if we fall in the effort, do not weep, for it is not in vain, for our struggles may inspire the next generation and the next uncountable. And eventually in some far away time we can know that the love of Eru will shine upon the world once again, and evil will be banished once and for all.

 

[Deimos]

What if it's true in an alternate universe? What if every jot and tittle of Tolkien's ME is true but in another universe?
We have our history as sorry as it has been at times; it has been equally glorious at others.
Literally, for better or for worse, it is ours and we are accountable for it.
Why would Tolkien inter mix the two?
What if he was able to imaginatively access** an alternate universe? Not fully and ompletely but enough to write his stories?
Wormholes go...where? Why couldn't alternate universes at times overlap?

**Who knows of what the mind is capable?
Thought exceeds the speed of light, the imaginative faculty is boundless over distances; it can imagine a Universe billions of light years wide, thus it can also imagine it billions of years old. It can imagine and visualize multi universes.

 

[Olorgando]

Thought exceeds the speed of light,

My personal experience would put it closer to 300,000 millimeters per second - or was that micrometers? I sometimes get the two confused ... 🤔

JRRT does propose time frames longer than the Fourth Age beginning "about 6,000 years ago" in a letter (haven't reached it yet in my new expanded edition of the book). That would put the beginning of the Second Age at a bit over 12,000 years ago, which might coincide with the end of the most recent ice age (or more properly glaciation period; the "ice age", of course, would be Morgoth's fault). I have a dim memory from some book that calibrated carbon-14 dating has moved some dates further back than those arrived at by older uncalibrated calculations; I'd guess the need for calibration had to be discovered first of all.

It would then imply a catastrophic civilization collapse between 6,000 and 5,000 years ago, when the first recorded stirrings occurred in Egypt and Mesopotamia, and legendary past in China. That collapse would have had to wipe out any archaeological and archaeobotanical traces of (primarily) the Third Age. For the "Easterlings" and "Southrons" one could rationalize it as the loss of their "god-king" Sauron, with traces reappearing in "historical" times. But the drop in north-western Europe must have been much steeper, starting out at the height of Aragorn's reunited kingdom.

 

[Will Whitfoot]

What if it's true in an alternate universe? What if every jot and tittle of Tolkien's ME is true but in another universe?

We call it the Omniverse, to distinguish from the Multiverse. In the latter the worlds are considered completely separate, and it would be impossible for any communication to occur between them. But in the Omniverse all timelines occur side-by-side, touching, and neighboring timelines are always accessible. More distant timelines (such as Tolkien's Middle Earth) are more difficult to connect with, and occasional alignments and intersections of the timeline streams do allow glimpses to transmit. These glimpses occur because the human brain contains umpty trillions of neurons which are so delicately balanced that they may be triggered by very subtle signals propagated through the quantum foam of space-time. It is in the milieu of this quantum foam that the Omniverse exists. These "glimpses" of other worlds are always imperfect and typically manifest in dreams, and visions, ideas, and snippets of doggerel or melody. A few interdimensional traces of Middle Earth may be found in modern culture, particularly in songs and stories. In particular, the missing FIVE rings that have oddly disappeared from Tolkien's tale of the Great Rings. They reappear in our world as the FIVE GOLDEN RINGS of the "Partridge In A Pear Tree" doggerel. Note that in the song the mention of them is always accentuated... intended to draw our attention to their significance. (Though few pay attention!) It also appears that at least one of the missing wizards has managed to make his way to our world, where he has woven a fantastic tale around himself, named himself as Santa Claus, and promotes positivity through generosity and minor magic, aided by the fact that he has gathered all the Five unto his hand.

So yes... it is "true in an alternate universe" as you say... but... that universe is closer than you think!

 

[James the Just]

In 4502 B.C. ...

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Well, if you want to see a post by some nut who actually thinks it’s real (🤪), he hasn’t been here in a while unfortunately; he was entertaining for a while.

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/hidden-map-message.23921/

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/it-is-real.29578/

In all seriousness though, Tolkien writing as if he was translating a book from Oxford library (I think?) always was a fascinating concept to me.

 

[James the Just]

If you lower the sea level, place Hobbiton in Oxford and Minas Tirith near Florence, and ignore the Iberian Peninsula, it resembles the map made by Christopher uncannily.

 

[Annatar]

Tolkien writing as if he was translating a book [...] always was a fascinating concept to me.

Since his works are very much based on his philological interest, this trick was even necessary in order to introduce many proper names (place and personal names) based on real languages. Because he translated Westron with English, all other languages that were related to Westron had to have an analogous linguistic relationship in their translation. Hence, for example, the association of the Rohirrim language with Old English, or the dwarf names from the Edda, etc.
What was explicitly not translated accordingly, however, were the Elvish languages (which were his own inventions), even if these are nevertheless somewhat related to real languages, as Sindarin was influenced by Welsh and Quenya by Finnish.

place Hobbiton in Oxford and Minas Tirith near Florence

Tolkien made exactly these statements about the latitudes.

What you should also always bear in mind is that in prehistoric times the sea level was actually lower and there was a land connection between the British Isles and the continent ("Doggerland"). It could have looked like this, for example:

But there are also a few things that still don't fit. Where are the Misty Mountains here, for example?
There is an approach that equates the Misty Mountains with the mountains in Norway:

Tolkien’s Middle Earth mapped to Europe

Here he superimposes Middle Earth onto a Europe at a time when sea levels (in my estimation) were more than 100m lower than they are today.

ktwop.com

A not entirely illogical explanation for this might be a pole shift.

The mountains of Mordor are indeed very reminiscent of the Carpathian Mountains. Take a look at them on Google Earth, there are quite a few parallels.

Some pseudo-geologists have criticized Tolkien's mountain ranges for being unrealistic, especially in relation to Mordor. Well, here we have proof to the contrary.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

My brother has visited south Eriador as well as the ruins of Beleriand! It's a beautiful place.

 

[Annatar]

I also really like the association of Beleriand with Iceland. Or with a once much larger Iceland that was completely swallowed up by the sea, but has now partially reappeared.
I've been there myself and it really is magical. No wonder many locals believe in elves and trolls.

More Than Half of Iceland Believes in Elves

For real.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Tolkien supposedly had an Icelandic au pair who perhaps told him a few things about Iceland.

Tolkien's Icelandic au-pair | Guide to Iceland

J. R. R Tolkien, author of Lord Of The Rings, The Hobbit and more amazing tales, studied the Icelandic language and heard of the Trolls in Iceland from an Icelandic au-p

guidetoiceland.is

 

[James the Just]

Since his works are very much based on his philological interest, this trick was even necessary in order to introduce many proper names (place and personal names) based on real languages. Because he translated Westron with English, all other languages that were related to Westron had to have an analogous linguistic relationship in their translation. Hence, for example, the association of the Rohirrim language with Old English, or the dwarf names from the Edda, etc.
What was explicitly not translated accordingly, however, were the Elvish languages (which were his own inventions), even if these are nevertheless somewhat related to real languages, as Sindarin was influenced by Welsh and Quenya by Finnish.



Tolkien made exactly these statements about the latitudes.

What you should also always bear in mind is that in prehistoric times the sea level was actually lower and there was a land connection between the British Isles and the continent ("Doggerland"). It could have looked like this, for example:

But there are also a few things that still don't fit. Where are the Misty Mountains here, for example?
There is an approach that equates the Misty Mountains with the mountains in Norway:

Tolkien’s Middle Earth mapped to Europe

Here he superimposes Middle Earth onto a Europe at a time when sea levels (in my estimation) were more than 100m lower than they are today.

ktwop.com

A not entirely illogical explanation for this might be a pole shift.

The mountains of Mordor are indeed very reminiscent of the Carpathian Mountains. Take a look at them on Google Earth, there are quite a few parallels.

View attachment 27361

Some pseudo-geologists have criticized Tolkien's mountain ranges for being unrealistic, especially in relation to Mordor. Well, here we have proof to the contrary.

I can see the Misty Mountains in the image where you ask. They just are not very high. The Redhorn Pass is clearly visible.

I wish I knew how to make a good map.

If you would like to see in great detail where just about everything in the books might be, check out my thread, "A Pilgrimage through Middle-earth" at this site (I'd give a link but don't how to on my phone).

And for more fun google Elvish Astrology & James Strom.

I figured out how to link.

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/a-pilgrimage-through-middle-earth.23636/?amp=1

Elvish Astrology & Alchemy

Elvish Astrology & Alchemy - Astrologers Forum

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Anyone heard the Bermuda Triangle is actually the Straight Way? That's why the ships disappear in that location. Either those are Elves sailing to Valinor who have remained thus far here, or those are unfortunate Men being whirlpooled by the wrath of Ossë. Serious business this is.

 

[Olorgando]

Anyone heard the Bermuda Triangle is actually the Straight Way? That's why the ships disappear in that location. Either those are Elves sailing to Valinor who have remained thus far here, or those are unfortunate Men being whirlpooled by the wrath of Ossë. Serious business this is.

If you want any really relevant statistics, go ask (reputable) insurance companies. Granted, they may not give them out to just anybody ...
But fact is, there is no, zilch, nada, nix surcharge on any vehicles (mainly ships, perhaps also planes) that cross this region. The BT is Baloney Slices.

 

[Will Whitfoot]

....The BT is Baloney Slices.

Oh gosh... rain on Glorfindel's parade why not! I assumed it was tongue in cheek and all in good fun for those of us who enjoy fantasies. But here's a little Christmas gift for you. (now... let me see if I know how to add a link....)

You might have to click on "captions" to see the printed lyrics
Make fun all you want.... but you see... I was there.... and I believe in Santa Claus!