Frodo or Sam?

[Deimos]

Anyone who might be tempted to confuse book Pippin with movie Pippin. 😉

Gotcha. Pax

 

[Radaghast]

Anyone who might be tempted to confuse book Pippin with movie Pippin. 😉

 

[d4rk3lf]

I like them both.
I like Sam spirit in it's simplicity, yet totally devoted.
Yet, I like that he is not an idiot. He is in fact, a very smart guy. He knows his place, and he never tries to be someone that he isn't.
And only strong guys do that.

I love Frodo because he recognize majority of the Sam qualities above.
I like how Frodo with equal respect always reply to Sam.
------------
If somebody puts a pistol on my head and tell me I must choose.. I'd probably tell Sam.
Because Sam is, all things considered, maybe the smartest guy... or better say.. the smartest spirit/soul.

 

[Deimos]

I'm going to imitate those fantastically high IQ Quora participants who pose questions about LOTR....
Would Sam have killed Gollum if Frodo wasn't around to restrain him?
Seriously, I'm thinking of the time at Cirith Ungol....Frodo is already "dead" (so Sam thinks). He knows Gollum is around (even tho' he doesn't show up at C-U after deserting the two Hobbits in the tunnel.) . But let's say he did, and Sam managed to catch him, especially after he (Sam) had put on the Ring.
Sam had long wanted to kill Gollum, but Frodo forbade any injury to be done to him.
So now Sam has his chance. Would he have done it?

I pose this question here because so many of us chose Sam over Frodo, myself included; indeed some of us have him [nearly] walking on water.
But that is why I mentioned that even Tolkien said Sam had his faults.

From Letter 246 to a reader (post-publication of LOTR) "Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable...But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity — by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' — a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'.... Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited: but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. ....That [devotion] had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness...it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his [Frodo's] gradual education to nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt." (Emphasis--mine--added)

In Letter 96 to CRRT he says that "Gollum...came within a hair of repentance—but for one rough word from Sam."

Note of interest: came across Letter 93 to CRRT when searching for the other Letter. He is still in the process of writing the third book of LOTR....
"Cert. Sam is the most closely drawn character, the successor to Bilbo of the first book, the genuine Hobbit. Frodo is not so interesting, because he has to be highminded, and has (as it were) a vocation. The book will prob. end up with Sam. Frodo will naturally become too ennobled and rarefied by the achievement of the great Quest, and will pass West with all the great figures; but S. will settle down to the Shire and gardens and inns."

 

[Radaghast]

You all need to reread LOTR. Pippin utters some really droll comments in all three books.
But then, droll humour has been falling out of favour for decades now.
If you appreciate PG Wodehouse raise your hand....Anyone?
.... See what I mean?

I will say that Merry and Pippin in one scene reminded me of those two gophers from old WB cartoons.

 

[Radaghast]

I'm going to imitate those fantastically high IQ Quora participants who pose questions about LOTR....
Would Sam have killed Gollum if Frodo wasn't around to restrain him?
Seriously, I'm thinking of the time at Cirith Ungol....Frodo is already "dead" (so Sam thinks). He knows Gollum is around (even tho' Gollum never shows up after at C-U after deserting the two Hobbits in the tunnel.) . But let's say he did, and Sam managed to catch him, especially after he (Sam) if he had put on the Ring.
Sam had long wanted to kill Gollum, but Frodo forbade any injury to be done to him.
So now Sam has his chance. Would he have done it?

I don't think there's any doubt he would do it. He certainly would have if Gollum didn't manage to escape his wrath (another scene the movie trilogy ridiculously left on the cutting room floor 😡).

 

[Deimos]

I don't think there's any doubt he would do it. He certainly would have if Gollum didn't manage to escape his wrath (another scene the movie trilogy ridiculously left on the cutting room floor 😡).

I agree... I think he would have killed him, or at least would have made the attempt.
Of course even the failure to kill him would not absolve judgment on Sam; intent (and disposition) counts for a lot morally.

Uhhh, did I 'space' on that [book] scene? Does Gollum show up after he abandons them in the tunnel, but before the orcs show up?

 

[Radaghast]

I agree... I think he would have killed him, or at least would have made the attempt.
Of course even the failure to kill him would not absolve judgment on Sam; intent (disposition) counts for a lot morally.

Sam would be justified if he succeeded that first time. Not so much if he, say, charged Gollum from behind and cut him down.

Uhhh, did I 'space' on that [book] scene? Does Gollum show up after he abandons them in the tunnel, but before the orcs show up?

If so, it escapes the notice of Sam and it's after Sam takes the Ring.

 

[Deimos]

Sam would be justified if he succeeded that first time. Not so much if he, say, charged Gollum from behind and cut him down.


If so, it escapes the notice of Sam and it's after Sam takes the Ring.

Agreed.

 

[Olorgando]

Uhhh, did I 'space' on that [book] scene? Does Gollum show up after he abandons them in the tunnel, but before the orcs show up?

Yes, near the end of TT Book Four, chapter IX "Shelob's Lair" (p 732-33):
Frodo has run wildly from Shelob's lair quite a bit ahead of Sam, Shelob exits from a different opening and gets between Frodo and Sam, and Sam is about to shout a warning to Frodo when Gollum attacks Sam from behind.

"Fury at the treachery, and desperation at the delay when his master was in deadly peril, gave to Sam a sudden violence and strength that was far beyond anything that Gollum had expected from this slow stupid hobbit, as he thought him. Nor Gollum himself could have twisted more quickly or more fiercely. His hold on Sam's mouth slipped, and Sam ducked and lunged forward again ...
Then Sam played his last trick. With all his strength he pulled away and got his feet firmly planted; then suddenly he drove his legs against the ground and with his whole force hurled himself backward.
Not expecting even this simple trick from Sam, Gollum fell over with Sam on top, and he received the weight of the sturdy hobbit in his stomach. A sharp hiss came out of him ...
Laying hold of his staff with his left hand, Sam swung it up, and down it came with a whistling crack on Gollum's outstretched arm, just below the elbow.
With a squeal Gollum let go. Them Sam waded in; not waiting to change the staff from left to right he dealt another savage blow. Quick as a snake Gollum slithered aside, and the stroke aimed at his head fell across his back. The staff cracked and broke."

Gollum has had enough, flees back into the tunnel, Sam picks up the sword he has dropped and is about to follow Gollum when he realizes that Shelob is attacking Frodo. Sam's fight with Shelob follows.
Had Sam followed Gollum and been able to corner him (a big if) I have no doubt that he would have stabbed, hacked and bludgeoned Gollum to a bloody pulp.

 

[Deimos]

Yes, near the end of TT Book Four, chapter IX "Shelob's Lair" (p 732-33):
Frodo has run wildly from Shelob's lair quite a bit ahead of Sam, Shelob exits from a different opening and gets between Frodo and Sam, and Sam is about to shout a warning to Frodo when Gollum attacks Sam from behind.

"Fury at the treachery, and desperation at the delay when his master was in deadly peril, gave to Sam a sudden violence and strength that was far beyond anything that Gollum had expected from this slow stupid hobbit, as he thought him. Nor Gollum himself could have twisted more quickly or more fiercely. His hold on Sam's mouth slipped, and Sam ducked and lunged forward again ...
Then Sam played his last trick. With all his strength he pulled away and got his feet firmly planted; then suddenly he drove his legs against the ground and with his whole force hurled himself backward.
Not expecting even this simple trick from Sam, Gollum fell over with Sam on top, and he received the weight of the sturdy hobbit in his stomach. A sharp hiss came out of him ...
Laying hold of his staff with his left hand, Sam swung it up, and down it came with a whistling crack on Gollum's outstretched arm, just below the elbow.
With a squeal Gollum let go. Them Sam waded in; not waiting to change the staff from left to right he dealt another savage blow. Quick as a snake Gollum slithered aside, and the stroke aimed at his head fell across his back. The staff cracked and broke."

Gollum has had enough, flees back into the tunnel, Sam picks up the sword he has dropped and is about to follow Gollum when he realizes that Shelob it attacking Frodo. Sam's fight with Shelob follows.
Had Sam followed Gollum and been able to corner him (a big if) I have no doubt that he would have stabbed, hacked and bludgeoned Gollum to a bloody pulp.

Thanks... I saw that in my mind's eye from the beginning but I thought I was recalling the movie...daaaang....should have looked it up 🙄

 

[Olorgando]

...daaaang....should have looked it up 🙄

Tell me about it. I have to look up everything except Sam's "Well, I'm back." 😬

 

[Starbrow]

I don't think Sam would have killed Gollum except in self-defense. He had an opportunity later and he couldn't do it.
When Frodo and Sam were climbing up Mount Doom, Gollum attacked them. Frodo defeats him and Sam says,

"Quick, Master!' he gasped. 'Go on! ... I'll deal with him."

"Now!" said Sam. "At least I can deal with you!" He leaped forward with drawn blade ready for battle. But Gollum did not spring. He fell flat upon the ground and whimpered.

"Don't kill us, " he wept. "Don't hurt us with nasty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust." He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. "Dusst!" he hissed.

Sam's hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous, murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart there was something that restrained him: he could not strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous, utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the agony of Gollum's shriveled mind and body, enslaved to that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt.

"Oh, curse you, you stinking thing!" he said. "Go away! Be off! I don't trust you, not as far as I could kick you; but be off. Or I shall hurt you, yes, with nasty cruel steel."

 

[Radaghast]

I don't think Sam would have killed Gollum except in self-defense. He had an opportunity later and he couldn't do it.
When Frodo and Sam were climbing up Mount Doom, Gollum attacked them. Frodo defeats him and Sam says,

True. I should clarify (or correct) my previous response. I don't think Sam would've killed Gollum under any circumstances, just certain ones.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Never been a huge fan of Sam, though of course I recognise his importance to the story.
His slavish devotion to Frodo is something which just sets my teeth on edge, though I may be a little unfair here as he needs to have a very close relationship.
It might come as no great surprise that his almost unrelenting hostility to Gollum isn't my favoutite part of his character either! I mean, seriously, he was going to tie Gollum up and leave him to starve to death!

 

[Deimos]

I don't think Sam would have killed Gollum except in self-defense. He had an opportunity later and he couldn't do it.
When Frodo and Sam were climbing up Mount Doom, Gollum attacked them. Frodo defeats him and Sam says,

He held back only because he had worn the Ring.
I still wonder if he would have held back if he hadn't worn the Ring.
I think he would have killed him except for that.

 

[Radaghast]

Never been a huge fan of Sam, though of course I recognise his importance to the story.
His slavish devotion to Frodo is something which just sets my teeth on edge, though I may be a little unfair here as he needs to have a very close relationship.
It might come as no great surprise that his almost unrelenting hostility to Gollum isn't my favoutite part of his character either! I mean, seriously, he was going to tie Gollum up and leave him to starve to death!

I agree with you here. Sam is a bit too rough towards Gollum. I don't think it justifies what Gollum later does but Sam definitely could have been nicer. It's also interesting to note that Sam says more than one "rough word" to Gollum on the stairs of Cirith Ungol:

It's after that "Nice Master!" that Sam had a second chance to soften his tone and perhaps avoid (near) disaster. Of course, Sam was right to be suspicious though he had no clue why. And Tolkien said (in Letter #246) that "Sam could hardly have acted differently." After, he had just woken up and had a gut reaction to Gollum "pawing" at Frodo. Also, he tried to smooth things over, to no avail. As the text says, the "fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall."

 

[Olorgando]

I don't think Sam would have killed Gollum except in self-defense. He had an opportunity later and he couldn't do it.

Them Sam waded in; not waiting to change the staff from left to right he dealt another savage blow. Quick as a snake Gollum slithered aside, and the stroke aimed at his head fell across his back. The staff cracked and broke.

Sam had aimed the second blow at Gollum's head, and even with his weaker and much less coordinated left hand the staff (walking stick given to Sam, and Frodo, by Faramir when he released the three to continue their quest) broke. This is anything but a twig. Had Sam managed to score a hit on Gollum's head with his right hand, I have no doubt that would have split open Gollum's head like a ripe watermelon.

 

[Radaghast]

I'd say that was self-defense. Gollum had just attempted to strangle him.

 

[Deimos]

I'd say that was self-defense. Gollum had just attempted to strangle him.

Absolutely self defense.