📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Maybe they could have wings? Like they’re Maiar, Maiar could change their forms when they still had their full power, no? Unless morgoth corrupted them enough I guess but maybe they could have wings when necessary and not when not?

Meme tax:

 

[d4rk3lf]

View attachment 38337

Now we're talking!

If my theory is correct, this is the first Balrog image that is fully canon.

 

[Radaghast]

View attachment 38337

It's the vicious Balrog of Bristol!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Equally important:

 

[d4rk3lf]

Waiter: May I have your order?
Me: Balrog wings
Waiter: Excuse me, but what is that?
Me: Haven't you read a book? It's wings so hot, that I will breathe fire.
-------------------

On the other note, maybe it's dwarfs mistake after all.
Durin wanted to taste Balrog's wings, so Balrog massacred them in pure self defense.

 

[Elthir]

I still think the first statement regarding the shadow cast by the Balrog could be a reference to real wings, but like the conciliatory Orc that I am, I'm happy to go along with the premise that it's a simile.

I think the "like wings" to "wings" can be the exact same thing as the "like wings" to "wings" from Tal-Elmar. And this type of construction is a fairly natural thing in writing, and given that Tolkien has also written about "Unlight," this can easily be the reading.

In any case, we "know" (externally) post-Moria Balrogs are "cloaked" in darkness: " . . . their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named." JRRT, The Later Quenta Silmarillion

Never before (that I recall) in Silmarillion writings were the Balrogs cloaked in shadow or unlight or darkness, but after JRRT penned the confrontation in Moria. . . in comes the dark!

I'd also note that pre-Moria Balrogs never (at least certainly) fly anywhere, in battle or in search of anything, and as I noted, in the drafts for the Moria Balrog encounter, the Balrog is clearly seen -- no shadow no wings -- this is, at the outset, still an "old-concept Balrog" in my opinion.

Let's look at the drafts. Or not. I'll write out the way I read 'em anyway.

In draft text A the Balrog is clearly seen and described [no shadow of course]. Gandalf cuts off its hand, a troll jumps onto the bridge and the Balrog [?tumbled, tumbles] sideways and falls into the chasm, along with Gandalf and the troll.

Draft A text ends, but Tolkien pencils a note: "Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked." Then Tolkien added (after the words "Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure") "and a great shadow seemed to block out the light" -- JRRT also noted that Gandalf should break the bridge, and the "Balrog falls, but lassoos him."

Tolkien then begins a fair copy of draft A, but decides to do some further draft writing before coming to the end, and then finishes the fair copy (C), following this new draft (B).

What did Tolkien change in the new draft about the confrontation with the Balrog? In B it's said that the Balrog "stood facing him" -- thus the new draft has the shadow of A, but no mention of wings -- and when writing the fair copy C, Tolkien added that the Balrog "halted" facing him "and the shadow about him reached out like great wings."

So, we basically have three copies where the Balrog has a shadow, and in C, the Shadow about him [Gandalf] reaches out like great wings.

Christopher Tolkien notes that neither the second draft B, nor the fair copy C, contain the sentence in which the Balrog drew itself up "nor speaks of the "wings" (Christopher Tolkien writes "wings" here not simply wings).

Proof? No again.

Of course, the second reference to wings comes in at some point, but does it really seem that JRRT has added both wings and flight, rather than a unique shadow? Not to me. And wings and flight would arguably constitute a notable change with respect to the already-written battles of the First Age, wherein Morgoth would now, early on in the history, have many, possibly thousands (Balrogs existed in great numbers, at least at the time Tolkien penned the Moria encounter) of flying demons at his disposal.

Maybe Tolkien intended this. . .

. . . but I rather think that Tolkien's concern here was to obscure the creature; indeed cloak it in shadow as he would describe later in The Silmarillion (quoted above), cloak it in something like Ungoliant's Unlight, which was not merely lack of light.

And of course, what an inventive way to get a unique "winged demon" into the tale! All that's "needed" is the moment where the cloak of darkness looks like (stretching out) wings; and no need to worry about the tales of the Elder Days, wherein (I think also notably) the winged dragons are held until the last (Wrathy War).

" . . . for until that day [when Morgoth loosed the winged dragons at the Wrathy War] no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air." JRRT Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road and Other Writings

(. . .) as meaning that the simplest explanation is the correct one) here? Why isn't Tolkien stating the obvious - that the Balrog, using his real (and no doubt astonishingly impressive) wings, flew from Thangorodrim? Wouldn't this actually make the most sense?

To me the idea of fleeing Thangorodrim is simple.

And we know from the same text you quoted that JRRT has no problem using "flying" for running orcs. And to quote Tolkien's Quenta Silmarillion (The Lost Road And Other Writings): "The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth."

I'd flee too! And if flapping my front paws helped. . .

 

[Radaghast]

Just FTR, 'fly' is an archaic form of 'flee'. The Led Zeppelin song "The Battle of Evermore" uses this term:

Oh, war is the common cry
Pick up your swords and fly

The singer is not exhorting people to actually take to the air.

Also, Gandalf tells the Fellowship, "Fly, you fools." He's not telling them to flap their arms and hope for a miracle (he's not telling them to go find Eagles either).

 

[Elthir]

Flying or fleeing?

Until someone can definitely put bat/bird
wings on a Balrog, I'm not adding them!

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Flying or fleeing?

Until someone can definitely put bat/bird
wings on a Balrog, I'm not adding them!

How’s this?

 

[Elthir]

I was wondering if my choice of wording
would circle round and try to bite my tail

😄

 

[TrackerOrc]

I think the "like wings" to "wings" can be the exact same thing as the "like wings" to "wings" from Tal-Elmar. And this type of construction is a fairly natural thing in writing, and given that Tolkien has also written about "Unlight," this can easily be the reading.

In any case, we "know" (externally) post-Moria Balrogs are "cloaked" in darkness: " . . . their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named." JRRT, The Later Quenta Silmarillion

Never before (that I recall) in Silmarillion writings were the Balrogs cloaked in shadow or unlight or darkness, but after JRRT penned the confrontation in Moria. . . in comes the dark!

I'd also note that pre-Moria Balrogs never (at least certainly) fly anywhere, in battle or in search of anything, and as I noted, in the drafts for the Moria Balrog encounter, the Balrog is clearly seen -- no shadow no wings -- this is, at the outset, still an "old-concept Balrog" in my opinion.

Let's look at the drafts. Or not. I'll write out the way I read 'em anyway.

In draft text A the Balrog is clearly seen and described [no shadow of course]. Gandalf cuts off its hand, a troll jumps onto the bridge and the Balrog [?tumbled, tumbles] sideways and falls into the chasm, along with Gandalf and the troll.

Draft A text ends, but Tolkien pencils a note: "Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked." Then Tolkien added (after the words "Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure") "and a great shadow seemed to block out the light" -- JRRT also noted that Gandalf should break the bridge, and the "Balrog falls, but lassoos him."

Tolkien then begins a fair copy of draft A, but decides to do some further draft writing before coming to the end, and then finishes the fair copy (C), following this new draft (B).

What did Tolkien change in the new draft about the confrontation with the Balrog? In B it's said that the Balrog "stood facing him" -- thus the new draft has the shadow of A, but no mention of wings -- and when writing the fair copy C, Tolkien added that the Balrog "halted" facing him "and the shadow about him reached out like great wings."

So, we basically have three copies where the Balrog has a shadow, and in C, the Shadow about him [Gandalf] reaches out like great wings.

Christopher Tolkien notes that neither the second draft B, nor the fair copy C, contain the sentence in which the Balrog drew itself up "nor speaks of the "wings" (Christopher Tolkien writes "wings" here not simply wings).

Proof? No again.

Of course, the second reference to wings comes in at some point, but does it really seem that JRRT has added both wings and flight, rather than a unique shadow? Not to me. And wings and flight would arguably constitute a notable change with respect to the already-written battles of the First Age, wherein Morgoth would now, early on in the history, have many, possibly thousands (Balrogs existed in great numbers, at least at the time Tolkien penned the Moria encounter) of flying demons at his disposal.

Maybe Tolkien intended this. . .

. . . but I rather think that Tolkien's concern here was to obscure the creature; indeed cloak it in shadow as he would describe later in The Silmarillion (quoted above), cloak it in something like Ungoliant's Unlight, which was not merely lack of light.

And of course, what an inventive way to get a unique "winged demon" into the tale! All that's "needed" is the moment where the cloak of darkness looks like (stretching out) wings; and no need to worry about the tales of the Elder Days, wherein (I think also notably) the winged dragons are held until the last (Wrathy War).

" . . . for until that day [when Morgoth loosed the winged dragons at the Wrathy War] no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air." JRRT Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road and Other Writings



To me the idea of fleeing Thangorodrim is simple.

And we know from the same text you quoted that JRRT has no problem using "flying" for running orcs. And to quote Tolkien's Quenta Silmarillion (The Lost Road And Other Writings): "The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth."

I'd flee too! And if flapping my front paws helped. . .

Well I've become that much of a strict canonist (only TH, LoTR and ATB - though I'm not actually going to reread the doggerel that is contained in the latter) that I'm only interested in the Moria Balrog as written. I'm so far down this track that I'm happy to give away my copy of Sil and HoME II to anyone who wants them. I refuse to have them sullying my bookshelves anymore.

I still think the first sentence could be seen as a reference to real wings, for the simple explanation that real wings would be the easiest explanation for something casting wing-like shadows. That being said, I can see where someone could take it as a simile.

My point here is that the second sentence has no connection with the first, whether you believe it's a simile or not. It's a simple sentence describing the Balrog and his wings. nothing more than that in my opinion.

Now, as I believe Tolkien has simply described a being who has wings, the flight from Thangorodrim meaning just that makes the most sense to me. Orcs, Dwarves , Men can all 'fly' without wings (though in the case of the Orcs it's probably more like a tactical withdrawal) as we know they don't actually have wings; the Moria Balrog does have wings, as Tolkien has plainly described, so his flight is quite simply that.

 

[Elwing the White]

I propose this be the Balrog-Wings/No Wings Meme Thread.

This one is a bit untrue, as anyone who has tried to express their thoughts on Tom Bombadil knows.

 

[Radaghast]

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

 

[Elthir]

My point here is that the second sentence has no connection with the first, whether you believe it's a simile or not.

But how can you say so matter-of-factly that there's no connection? What rule of grammar, or "rule" of writing perhaps, prohibits such a connection in the Moria encounter? In other words, why can't it be the same exact thing we find in Tal-Elmar -- or indeed, in any other story by any other writer who employs this?

My quoting Tal-Elmar is not about what's canon or not canon, it's just a ready-to-hand Tolkienian example of what is possible in prose and poetry.

Now, as I believe. . .

Well yes, the rest of your statement here doesn't not make sense, especially if you first believe your interpretation about the Moria passages. I get that.

But reading it as simile to > the-word-then-standing-alone-being-understood-in-light-of-the-simile (again, sails like wings to > simply wings [twice!] understood as sails, makes perfect sense too. And thus, reading the "flying" as "fleeing" passage also doesn't not make sense.

Does that make sense

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Makes sense!

 

[TrackerOrc]

But how can you say so matter-of-factly that there's no connection? What rule of grammar, or "rule" of writing perhaps, prohibits such a connection in the Moria encounter? In other words, why can't it be the same exact thing we find in Tal-Elmar -- or indeed, in any other story by any other writer who employs this?

My quoting Tal-Elmar is not about what's canon or not canon, it's just a ready-to-hand Tolkienian example of what is possible in prose and poetry.



Well yes, the rest of your statement here doesn't not make sense, especially if you first believe your interpretation about the Moria passages. I get that.

But reading it as simile to > the-word-then-standing-alone-being-understood-in-light-of-the-simile (again, sails like wings to > simply wings [twice!] understood as sails, makes perfect sense too. And thus, reading the "flying" as "fleeing" passage also doesn't not make sense.

Does that make sense

Well, simply put, the first sentence concerns itself with the shadow about it (it being the Balrog). Now this shadow, reaching out 'like two vast wings' is taken by some to be a simile. I'm fine with that, whilst still suggesting that the perfect thing to cast a wing-like shadow would be wings, but let's not quibble (though I'm not at all averse to a good old quibble).

The second sentence concerns itself with the flesh and blood Balrog spreading its flesh and blood (albeit astonishingly impressive ) wings; no shadow involved, no shadow-like wings or wings-as-shadow.

Now I'm not saying that there can't be a connection between two such disparate sentences, I'm saying there doesn't have to be, and I just think the simplest explanation fits best - real wings.

Again, the flight from Thangorodrim using real wings is the simplest explanation - you don't need simile to actual words, back to simile etc - we can just take Tolkien as writing exactly what he meant.

And from Thangorodrim to Moria, as the Balrog flys, is a fair old distance, which accounts for the Balrog having such astonishingly impressive wings.

Inescapable logic really.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

Well, simply put, the first sentence concerns itself with the shadow about it (it being the Balrog). Now this shadow, reaching out 'like two vast wings' is taken by some to be a simile. I'm fine with that, whilst still suggesting that the perfect thing to cast a wing-like shadow would be wings, but let's not quibble (though I'm not at all averse to a good old quibble).

The second sentence concerns itself with the flesh and blood Balrog spreading its flesh and blood (albeit astonishingly impressive ) wings; no shadow involved, no shadow-like wings or wings-as-shadow.

Now I'm not saying that there can't be a connection between two such disparate sentences, I'm saying there doesn't have to be, and I just think the simplest explanation fits best - real wings.

Again, the flight from Thangorodrim using real wings is the simplest explanation - you don't need simile to actual words, back to simile etc - we can just take Tolkien as writing exactly what he meant.

And from Thangorodrim to Moria, as the Balrog flys, is a fair old distance, which accounts for the Balrog having such astonishingly impressive wings.

Inescapable logic really.

As somebody mentioned earlier, the Balrog simply could not have fit into the Moria tunnels if it had wings the size of a cavern.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I'm aware of Tolkien's assertion that a Maia who retained a form for long would become "stuck" in it, but the description seems to imply the balrog was still capable of a certain amount of shape-shifting. After all, Gandalf tells of how, after plunging into the deep waters, he turned into a "thing of slime".