The children of 🧝Elrond

[Ricardo]

Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

My understanding was that they were given a choice that was the opposite of their father's and paternal grandparents's.

Basically they were elves, but they could choose to become mortal, I understood that was an explicit decision that they had to make at some point.

Arwen of course chose to be a mortal, but the faith of Elladan and Elrohir remained uncertain.

But then I was reading the Peoples of Middle Earth, and it gave 2 different accounts of this.

One is that they would remain elves as long as Elrond was in Middle Earth. Once Elrond departed to the west they either could go with him and remain elves or stay in Middle Earth and become human. That would eliminate any uncertainty because all 3 remained when Elrond left.

The other theory was that if they married a mortal, they would become mortal.

Arwen clearly married a mortal.

But Elladan and Elrohir were unmarried, so their fate was unknown at that point. My guess is if they married an elf, considering that elves marriages are for ever they would consolidate their status as elves.

But now, with something I had clear I am very confused.

 

[Ent]

But now, with something I had clear I am very confused.

LOL. Welcome to "Tolkien and the weaving, winding paths he trod" as he was musing through his created world.
(I have aspirin, acetaminophen, and exedrin available - nothing stronger than that, sorry.)

 

[Elthir]

But then I was reading the Peoples of Middle Earth, and it gave 2 different accounts of this.

You recently posted that, for you at least, even The Lord of the Rings isn't canon -- for me however, it is, and thus my answer here is very much based on this "status" -- as opposed to draft letter 153 for example, which is often raised in regard to this issue.

I'll footnote my thoughts about letter 153 below, foolishly assuming that someone cares

One is that they would remain elves as long as Elrond was in Middle Earth. Once Elrond departed to the west they either could go with him and remain elves or stay in Middle Earth and become human.

This to me, is the canonical answer, except that I would phrase it rather: the children of Elrond "live with the youth of the Eldar" so long as Elrond abides in Middle-earth. See Appendix A, part V, a part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

In my opinion, this is basically the same message as found in the "extended" Tale of Years, published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which Tolkien reduced on the advice of his publisher.

But now, with something I had clear I am very confused.

Canon to the rescue! Well, that's what I say anyway

In other words, according to author-published text, for me it's simple enough, all of Elrond's children chose mortality, remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

___________________

*warning the following footnote may induce unwanted napping*

In the (in)famous draft letter 153 (dated Sept 1954 -- JRRT wrote "not sent" on it) JRRT states -- directly after noting that Elrond passes Over Sea -- that Elrond's sons "delay their choice, and remain for a while" and further notes that their end "is not told".

Question: does this letter pre-date or post-date the relevant section in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen? I have never been able to tease that out for certain, but in any case, in the tale as published by Tolkien, Aragorn says: "the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part with you or with Middle-earth" -- that is, not just Arwen, but Elrond's "children". And to this Elrond replies: "Truly" and "Soon as we account it. . ." basically agreeing with Aragorn, to my mind.

Of possible interest! When, in this letter, Tolkien says that the end of the story of Elrond's sons is "not told" -- this much it true in 1954 according to The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, as we only learn in the much later, revised edition of The Lord of the Rings that the sons of Elrond stayed in Middle-earth after Elrond departed.

 

[Ent]

And once again, we must say "this is why we have an @Elthir about the place" and keep a box with blanket handy in the corner for naps.
We do not ask "Who is that man behind the curtain" here. Nay. We ask "Who is that cat 'neath the coat?"
A cat able to spin out length of detail, and detail of import, while still saying "this is how I read it... (or not)... however, what think you, reader?" And this in a voice unheard, yet clear and loud.
A wonder indeed.
Clearly not the normative human. (Thank goodness. Though perhaps, should be. Perhaps.)

 

[Elthir]

Too kind Ent, but appreciated!

 

[Ent]

Too kind Ent, but appreciated!

Possibility of anything or anyone being "too kind..." pondered.
Conclusion: possibility rejected.

 

[Elthir]

Hmm. How 'bout "too kind" in its very general, idiomatic usage (to express general appreciation) . . . or maybe just: thanks for the kind words!



And since I'm here: to be more specific about the texts mentioning the Sons of Elrond: as far as I'm aware (at the moment), the first edition of The Lord of the Rings never mentioned whether or not they remained in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

For the revised edition in the 1960s however, JRRT added at least two references: "But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris with the sons of Elrond." Appendix B, Tale of Years.

And: "There, though Elrond had long departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk." Prologue, The Fellowship of the Ring

 

[Ent]

"too kind" in its very general, idiomatic usage

acceptable and accepted.

 

[Vardarianna]

And since I'm here: to be more specific about the texts mentioning the Sons of Elrond: as far as I'm aware (at the moment), the first edition of The Lord of the Rings never mentioned whether or not they remained in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

For the revised edition in the 1960s however, JRRT added at least two references: "But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris with the sons of Elrond." Appendix B, Tale of Years.

And: "There, though Elrond had long departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk." Prologue, The Fellowship of the Ring

I have always thought Elrohir and Elladan chose to stay in Middle-earth and became mortal, and their later lives are unrecorded by history.

 

[Elthir]

I have always thought Elrohir and Elladan chose to stay in Middle-earth and became mortal, and their later lives are unrecorded by history.

Robert Foster agrees with you too: " . . . and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become mortal" Entry Elladan, The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

Now obviously Mr. Foster and I don't speak for Tolkien, and just to note it here -- I'm also aware of the interpretation that Tolkien's "with him" (with Elrond, see below in T4 for example) could mean "as he did", or similar.

As might be obvious too (by now), I don't take that path, and especially the conversation with Aragorn in Appendix A seems very much about timing to my mind.

__________

The T4 Draft (again since I'm here, might as well add it)

The draft text mentioned above is called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: " . . . was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954."

It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children): 2300 "(. . .) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind."

And then, as I say, we have Tolkien publishing (if much later in the 1960s): "There, though Elrond had long departed, his sons long remained, . . ."

 

[Ent]

but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind."

syntax is quite clear. syntax was important - even key - to Tolkien.

 

[Elthir]

Thanks again O Ent!

And although Tolkien did as his publisher suggested -- he trimmed down The Tale of Years for Appendix B -- the following similar statement was yet included in Appendix A (1): "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow."

This statement comes well before the Aragorn and Elrond discussion later on in the same Appendix.

 

[Ent]

One must always grasp and apply the criticality of syntax to Tolkien, and to his works.
Many questions and conundrums are thereby resolved. (Though a key one will remain unmentioned here.)

 

[Vardarianna]

One must always grasp and apply the criticality of syntax ...

Syntax ... like the tax on ale and pipeweed?
(Just being silly; I know what syntax is: Syntax is the arrangement of words and phrases in a specific order, shaping meaning and impact, whereas 'sin tax' is a tax on items considered undesirable or harmful, such as alcohol or tobacco)

 

[Ricardo]

You recently posted that, for you at least, even The Lord of the Rings isn't canon -- for me however, it is, and thus my answer here is very much based on this "status" -- as opposed to draft letter 153 for example, which is often raised in regard to this issue.

I'll footnote my thoughts about letter 153 below, foolishly assuming that someone cares



This to me, is the canonical answer, except that I would phrase it rather: the children of Elrond "live with the youth of the Eldar" so long as Elrond abides in Middle-earth. See Appendix A, part V, a part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

In my opinion, this is basically the same message as found in the "extended" Tale of Years, published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which Tolkien reduced on the advice of his publisher.



Canon to the rescue! Well, that's what I say anyway

In other words, according to author-published text, for me it's simple enough, all of Elrond's children chose mortality, remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

___________________

*warning the following footnote may induce unwanted napping*

In the (in)famous draft letter 153 (dated Sept 1954 -- JRRT wrote "not sent" on it) JRRT states -- directly after noting that Elrond passes Over Sea -- that Elrond's sons "delay their choice, and remain for a while" and further notes that their end "is not told".

Question: does this letter pre-date or post-date the relevant section in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen? I have never been able to tease that out for certain, but in any case, in the tale as published by Tolkien, Aragorn says: "the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part with you or with Middle-earth" -- that is, not just Arwen, but Elrond's "children". And to this Elrond replies: "Truly" and "Soon as we account it. . ." basically agreeing with Aragorn, to my mind.

Of possible interest! When, in this letter, Tolkien says that the end of the story of Elrond's sons is "not told" -- this much it true in 1954 according to The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, as we only learn in the much later, revised edition of The Lord of the Rings that the sons of Elrond stayed in Middle-earth after Elrond departed.

Sorry but I 100% disagree. It’s widely believed the fate of Elladan and Elrohir is unknown and I can’t think of something less canonical than the history of Middle Earth.

In The Peoples of Middle Earth we have 2 different concepts nearly side by side. The only thing clear is that Tolkien didn’t have it clear at that point.

The Legendarium is not a+b=c. You can’t jump into conclusions and assume one outcome just because you like it.

May I remind you that Frodo at some point was called Bingo and that Bingo, again at some point was Bilbo’s son.

And I never read that Elladan and Elrohir became mortals. The only reference is those contradictory statements in the peoples of Middle Earth. The tale of Aragorn and Arwen is about, well Arwen’s choice that was never in doubt, not her brothers’

 

[Ent]

Sorry but I 100% disagree. It’s widely believed the fate of Elladan and Elrohir is unknown and I can’t think of something less canonical than the history of Middle Earth.

It's quite OK to disagree.
It's just not OK we feel everyone must agree with "our" interpretation.
Even about what is canon, what is not, and why.
With Tolkien, trust me... there is no "who is right and who is wrong."
One statement is true: "Tolkien did not have it all clear in his own mind." You add "at that point." I will suggest he never had it all clear in his own mind.
And, as he said, he intentionally left many things open, for people's own creativity.

Even the published work of the Balrog and its wings - the only part many MAY want to take as Canon - has a very clear and real syntax leading us to a concrete solution.
Tolkien says "shadow spread "like wings" wall to wall..." he doesn't say "wings spread like shadow wall to wall." Thus, there were no wings..! the wings were an imaginary "simile" he tossed in to draw the picture.
And there is NO place Tolkien writes they had literal wings. Yet the argument rages on still.

So... I think we cannot get too tense about seeing or understanding things one way or another on these issues.

One can't "jump into conclusions" - but one is more than free to draw perspectives from all available information.

Tolkien was still "building his world" at every moment of his life... changing, morphing, evolving. We simply do not know what his final conclusions may have been.

So let's not get too tense over the issue.

"We must have faith... that the Universe will unfold as it should." (Spock, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.) And Tolkien lefr a whole lot more "undiscovered" than just the future.

 

[Ricardo]

And once again, we must say "this is why we have an @Elthir about the place" and keep a box with blanket handy in the corner for naps.
We do not ask "Who is that man behind the curtain" here. Nay. We ask "Who is that cat 'neath the coat?"
A cat able to spin out length of detail, and detail of import, while still saying "this is how I read it... (or not)... however, what think you, reader?" And this in a voice unheard, yet clear and loud.
A wonder indeed.
Clearly not the normative human. (Thank goodness. Though perhaps, should be. Perhaps.)

Exactly, even the letters that you could thing would settle matters often contain the phrase “I think”. Tolkien was asked about many things and either he didn’t want to give a conclusive answer or he didn’t remember.

The main issue is that this is a fantasy world, no way to check with facts

 

[Elthir]

Sorry but I 100% disagree. It’s widely believed the fate of Elladan and Elrohir is unknown and I can’t think of something less canonical than the history of Middle Earth.

Ricardo, as I noted above, my source here is The Lord of the Rings, and not draft Letter 153.

And, as you brought up The Peoples of Middle-Earth, I was, and am, just adding that even in The Tale of Years as published in POME, there's a description that I think basically agrees with Appendix A.

The Legendarium is not a+b=c. You can’t jump into conclusions and assume one outcome just because you like it.

I'm not even sure I've (yet) certainly landed on a scenario here that I would prefer; but anyway. . .

. . . in your first post, you mentioned one account and wrote: "One is that they would remain elves as long as Elrond was in Middle Earth. Once Elrond departed to the west they either could go with him and remain elves or stay in Middle Earth and become human. That would eliminate any uncertainty because all 3 remained when Elrond left."

And that's how I interpret Appendix A (except as I say above, I'd use Tolkien's own terminology).

May I remind you that Frodo at some point was called Bingo and that Bingo, again at some point was Bilbo’s son.

I'm not sure why you're reminding me of this though, as again, given my view of canon, to me there never was anyone named Bingo son of Bilbo in Middle-earth. Numerous draft ideas are left behind as Tolkien worked toward a version of the tale he desired to publish.

And I never read that Elladan and Elrohir became mortals. The only reference is those contradictory statements in the peoples of Middle Earth. The tale of Aragorn and Arwen is about, well Arwen’s choice that was never in doubt, not her brothers’

Appendix A contains two references referring to the children of Elrond, which to me should naturally include his sons. "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth." Appendix A

And even in The Tale of A&A, Aragorn says this to Elrond: "the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part with you or with Middle-earth" -- and to this Elrond replies: "Truly" and "Soon as we account it. . ." basically agreeing with Aragorn, to my mind.

 

[Ricardo]

Ricardo, as I noted above, my source here is The Lord of the Rings, and not draft Letter 153.

And, as you brought up The Peoples of Middle-Earth, I was, and am, just adding that even in The Tale of Years as published in POME, there's a description that I think basically agrees with Appendix A.



I'm not even sure I've (yet) certainly landed on a scenario here that I would prefer; but anyway. . .

. . . in your first post, you mentioned one account and wrote: "One is that they would remain elves as long as Elrond was in Middle Earth. Once Elrond departed to the west they either could go with him and remain elves or stay in Middle Earth and become human. That would eliminate any uncertainty because all 3 remained when Elrond left."

And that's how I interpret Appendix A (except as I say above, I'd use Tolkien's own terminology).




I'm not sure why you're reminding me of this though, as again, given my view of canon, to me there never was anyone named Bingo son of Bilbo in Middle-earth. Numerous draft ideas are left behind as Tolkien worked toward a version of the tale he desired to publish.



Appendix A contains two references referring to the children of Elrond, which to me should naturally include his sons. "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth." Appendix A

And even in The Tale of A&A, Aragorn says this to Elrond: "the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part with you or with Middle-earth" -- and to this Elrond replies: "Truly" and "Soon as we account it. . ." basically agreeing with Aragorn, to my mind.

Sorry I was away with only my phone and was difficult to write.

The point is, POME give 2 conflicting ways for the children or Elrond to choose immortality or a mortal life, through staying in Middle Earth or leaving or to marry a mortal or not.

As per LOTR. I don't interpret that as to go with Elrond in the same ship, but whether to remain permanently in Middle Earth or eventually leave for the west.

The choice is to part with Elrond or with Middle Earth, that is clear (and sorry I did not quite remember that passage), but it doesn't mean the choice had to be made at the same time Elrond left Middle Earth. To my view, it's not clear whether they stayed in Middle Earth or they eventually sailed to the west.


Last but not least, my reference to Bingo just shows how changing Tolkien's mind was. When he first started writing LOTR he had no idea where the story was going (as per Christopher Tolkien), not even the ring was in his mind at that time, he was just writing chapter after chapter and changed them multiple times, often starting again.


Tolkien kept adding stories even after Lotr was published, that's why I don't believe there is a canon, however, there is a narrative line, even in the Silmarillion. CT had to make choices for it and he admitted that in some cases he was wrong, however, I do take the narrative of the published Silmarillion or I would go mad. As per LOTR, Tolkien kept writing stories or expanding existing ones after the publication. Even if we could talk to Tolkien I am not sure he would know all the answers.

My other comment, and this is so no canon as it's merely speculation from me.

Somewhere is said that they had to make a choice, there was not a deadline for it but it has to happen at some point.

Now, regardless of what interpretation we have on how they could make their choice, if they have stayed indefinitely in Middle Earth as elves they would have faded. That's I believe a fate worse than death so getting to that point they might have wanted to be mortals.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.

My understanding was that they were given a choice that was the opposite of their father's and paternal grandparents's.

Basically they were elves, but they could choose to become mortal, I understood that was an explicit decision that they had to make at some point.

Arwen of course chose to be a mortal, but the faith of Elladan and Elrohir remained uncertain.

But then I was reading the Peoples of Middle Earth, and it gave 2 different accounts of this.

One is that they would remain elves as long as Elrond was in Middle Earth. Once Elrond departed to the west they either could go with him and remain elves or stay in Middle Earth and become human. That would eliminate any uncertainty because all 3 remained when Elrond left.

The other theory was that if they married a mortal, they would become mortal.

Arwen clearly married a mortal.

But Elladan and Elrohir were unmarried, so their fate was unknown at that point. My guess is if they married an elf, considering that elves marriages are for ever they would consolidate their status as elves.

But now, with something I had clear I am very confused.

I'm sorry, your title reminded me of this:
f