What is Film Noir or Noir genre?

[herlig9]

I think biggest inspirations from that came from olden days of Pulps. Noir genre to me can be described as
(Detective crime or thriller, strong contrast. And dialogue being the most important element and doing it right). In modern day movie example it would be "Blade Runner" movie from 1982, despite how it is cyberpunk obviously, but the style of it is very close to noir setting.

This is not to be confused with... lets say "Poirot" or "Sherlock Holmes", which is more of a mystery crime type of story. Basically for something to be Noir? It has to follow a certain pattern.

But what do you think of it?

 

[Halasían]

I've been a fan of Raymond Chandler's Phillip Marlowe books since I first found a paperback of 'Farewell My Lovely' in a used book store. Coincidentally, I first saw 'The Big Sleep' movie around that same time circa 1974. I liked the narratives in the books and movies with the character talking to himself. I have a hard time relating more modern movies as 'Noir' though.

 

[Deimos]

Not all Mystery stories/movies are Noir, not all Detective stories/ movies are Noir.
A noir movie typically has certain attributes: the "mood" is dark, and the setting has definite light and dark contrasts.
There are no "good guys" .. all characters are pretty flawed and unlikable, even the "better" characters of the story.
There is no happy ending; moreover Justice is seldom served.
The protagonist who, like all the characters, is unlikable, is at some point trapped in a situation of his own making, sometimes through his own faults, sometimes by "fate", which leads to his downfall. The salient point of his downfall tho' is that it WILL happen.
That entrapment is almost always related to his involvement with a "Femme Fatale".
The benchmark Noir movies are Double Indemnity (1944) and The Third Man (1950). Each movie has its fiercest defenders of which is #1.
The Maltese Falcon (1941) is a "gritty detective movie/story" that borders on the genre but lacks the fatal fall of the protagonist.
Likewise Laura (1944 ...and one of my favorite movies ) just skirts the periphery.
However at least two of the Cohen Brothers' movies are squarely in the Noir genre: Blood Simple and Millers Crossing
And No Country for Old Men kind of falls into it.
John Huston's Chinatown (1974) is definitely in the genre.
I'm sure there are more moderm movies that fit the description.
I wondered if Hitchcock's Rear Window would be considered noir, like Laura, just on the edge. Apparently there is some debate about it.
@herlig9 ..I know you mentioned written stories but the same genre defining characteristics would apply to them as well.
The Big Sleep (story and movie) is noir.
Just my 2 cents... or 25 cents... or (inflation adjusted) $2 😄

 

[herlig9]

Not all Mystery stories/movies are Noir, not all Detective stories/ movies are Noir.
A noir movie typically has certain attributes: the "mood" is dark, and the setting has definite light and dark contrasts.
There are no "good guys" .. all characters are pretty flawed and unlikable, even the "better" characters of the story.
There is no happy ending; moreover Justice is seldom served.
The protagonist who, like all the characters, is unlikable, is at some point trapped in a situation of his own making, sometimes through his own faults, sometimes by "fate", which leads to his downfall. The salient point of his downfall tho' is that it WILL happen.
That entrapment is almost always related to his involvement with a "Femme Fatale".
The benchmark Noir movies are Double Indemnity (1944) and The Third Man (1950). Each movie has its fiercest defenders of which is #1.
The Maltese Falcon (1941) is a "gritty detective movie/story" that borders on the genre but lacks the fatal fall of the protagonist.
Likewise Laura (1944 ...and one of my favorite movies ) just skirts the periphery.
However at least two of the Cohen Brothers' movies are squarely in the Noir genre: Blood Simple and Millers Crossing
And No Country for Old Men kind of falls into it.
John Huston's Chinatown (1974) is definitely in the genre.
I'm sure there are more moderm movies that fit the description.
I wondered if Hitchcock's Rear Window would be considered noir, like Laura, just on the edge. Apparently there is some debate about it.
@herlig9 ..I know you mentioned written stories but the same genre defining characteristics would apply to them as well.
The Big Sleep (story and movie) is noir.
Just my 2 cents... or 25 cents... or (inflation adjusted) $2 😄

I am European so i am very terrible at Noir knowledge usually, so its why i am trying to learn hah, i dont think American pulps really reached Europe much. (Either that or i am too young? I was born in 1991). I only know one guy i tend to buy them from who is American, though he can be seen as controversial due to politics.

But would you classify "Blade Runner" movie from 1982 as having those Noir type of element? I know its Cyberpunk genre though. But in the sense of direction?

 

[herlig9]

But... maybe we do have those in Norway?
Crime genre? Jo Nesbø author? But then again. Harry Hole is more of a crime detective story, even if the guy is alcoholic i dont think that can be classified as Noir? Its just too easy.

 

[Deimos]

I am European so i am very terrible at Noir knowledge usually, so its why i am trying to learn hah, i dont think American pulps really reached Europe much. (Either that or i am too young? I was born in 1991). I only know one guy i tend to buy them from who is American, though he can be seen as controversial due to politics.

But would you classify "Blade Runner" movie from 1982 as having those Noir type of element? I know its Cyberpunk genre though. But in the sense of direction?

I saw it only once and long ago so I couldn't trust my memory to answer you.
However I have "discussed" books and movies with AI (Gemini) , so I asked it: "Is the original Blade Runner movie (1982) considered "noir"?
Gemini says Yes, it falls into the genre of Neo-noir (call it "updated noir").
Its full answer:
The short answer is yes—Blade Runner (1982) is widely considered the quintessential "Neo-Noir." It takes the classic tropes of 1940s detective films and overlays them onto a high-tech, decaying future.

Why it fits the Noir Genre​

While it’s a sci-fi movie, its DNA is pure noir:

• The Protagonist: Rick Deckard is the classic "hardboiled" detective—cynical, weary, and living in a cramped, messy apartment.
• The Femme Fatale: The character of Rachel fits the mold of the mysterious woman who complicates the hero's mission and makes him question his own morality.
• The Moral Ambiguity: There isn't a simple "good vs. evil" dynamic. The lines between who is human and who is a machine (and who is the real "villain") are constantly blurred.
• The Setting: The city itself feels like a character—overcrowded, oppressive, dark, rainy, smoggy, and indifferent to the individuals living within it.

 

[herlig9]

I saw it only once and long ago so I couldn't trust my memory to answer you.
However I have "discussed" books and movies with AI (Gemini) , so I asked it: "Is the original Blade Runner movie (1982) considered "noir"?
Gemini says Yes, it falls into the genre of Neo-noir (call it "updated noir").
Its full answer:
The short answer is yes—Blade Runner (1982) is widely considered the quintessential "Neo-Noir." It takes the classic tropes of 1940s detective films and overlays them onto a high-tech, decaying future.

Why it fits the Noir Genre​

While it’s a sci-fi movie, its DNA is pure noir:

• The Protagonist: Rick Deckard is the classic "hardboiled" detective—cynical, weary, and living in a cramped, messy apartment.
• The Femme Fatale: The character of Rachel fits the mold of the mysterious woman who complicates the hero's mission and makes him question his own morality.
• The Moral Ambiguity: There isn't a simple "good vs. evil" dynamic. The lines between who is human and who is a machine (and who is the real "villain") are constantly blurred.
• The Setting: The city itself feels like a character—overcrowded, oppressive, dark, rainy, smoggy, and indifferent to the individuals living within it.

Would Nordic Noir be... breaking some of those traditions?
I have never read a Harry Hole book in my life. I just know they are popular in Norway. But looking it up. Its said to be classified as one. Exception is, its not in classical pulps since (They frankly dont exist anymore, and they usually were short stories). Whereas those Harry Hole books can be up to 400 or 600 pages long? And they focus more on social issues than strictly the atmosphere.

edit: After thinking about it. I don't believe Harry Hole books can really be classified as Noir. Social issues is... a little too preachy vs neutral elements of atmosphere being the guide to a situation. But what do you think?

 

[Deimos]

The "social issues" subject matter kills it. Noir character have no interest in social issues .
Social issues concern the well being of other people.
Noir characters are only concerned about their own well being.
They run the gamut from "self-centered" to "socio-pathic"

 

[Eljorahir]

In noir movies, do we always hear the inner monologue of the "protagonist"? I haven't seen any of the movies Deimos mentioned.

The word "noir" makes me think of Frank Miller's "Sin City" and also "Watchmen". There's a lot of inner monologue in these two films. And, this allows the viewer to get immersed in the deep cynicism of the hard-boiled seedy protagonists.

 

[Vardarianna]

I recently watched Klute with Donald Sutherland and Jane Fonda. It was a really good movie. I think it is tagged 'Neo-Noir'.

 

[herlig9]

In noir movies, do we always hear the inner monologue of the "protagonist"? I haven't seen any of the movies Deimos mentioned.

The word "noir" makes me think of Frank Miller's "Sin City" and also "Watchmen". There's a lot of inner monologue in these two films. And, this allows the viewer to get immersed in the deep cynicism of the hard-boiled seedy protagonists.

I don't think its required. But it does add to a scenario for sure. I don't think Blade Runner movie from 1982 has any inner monologue from what i can tell?

 

[Eljorahir]

inner monologue

It's been a while since I've seen it. I think there's more, but here's one example:

 

[herlig9]

It's been a while since I've seen it. I think there's more, but here's one example:

Is this a director's cut or deleted scene?
Ordered the movie on bluray. So i am looking forward to watch it!

 

[Eljorahir]

Is this a director's cut or deleted scene?
Ordered the movie on bluray. So i am looking forward to watch it!

Not sure. If memory serves, the movie may have been released at different times with slightly different endings, this being one.

 

[herlig9]

Not sure. If memory serves, the movie may have been released at different times with slightly different endings, this being one.

I rewatched it on Bluray today.
And the ending is a little bit... ambigious. But i am gonna guess its a good ending. But i like the movie ending with the elevator a little better : D

 

[Deimos]

In noir movies, do we always hear the inner monologue of the "protagonist"? I haven't seen any of the movies Deimos mentioned.

The word "noir" makes me think of Frank Miller's "Sin City" and also "Watchmen". There's a lot of inner monologue in these two films. And, this allows the viewer to get immersed in the deep cynicism of the hard-boiled seedy protagonists.

Oh... excellent observation... Watch Laura...(anyone seen Laura? ... I mean besides Squinty 🙄😄 who, with E-A , is pretty movie savvy).
Waldo Lydecker (Clifton Webb) has a lot of inner monologue going on... you really get to see how manipulative he is.
BUt, @herlig9 is right in that it is not a noir "requirement".
There are always grey areas when you start discussing genre in the arts.
But some attributes are "non-negotiable", such as Herlig mentioning social issues.
A movie dealing with social issues immediately locates it outside of the noir genre.
The attributes I listed above (e.g, the requirement Femme Fatale) have to be there, or it de facto falls into a different genre.

 

[herlig9]

Oh... excellent observation... Watch Laura...(anyone seen Laura? ... I mean besides Squinty 🙄😄 who, with E-A , is pretty movie savvy).
Waldo Lydecker (Clifton Webb) has a lot of inner monologue going on... you really get to see how manipulative he is.
BUt, @herlig9 is right in that it is not a noir "requirement".
There are always grey areas when you start discussing genre in the arts.
But some attributes are "non-negotiable", such as Herlig mentioning social issues.
A movie dealing with social issues immediately locates it outside of the noir genre.
The attributes I listed above (e.g, the requirement Femme Fatale) have to be there, or it de facto falls into a different genre.

I think the idea of Noir character. Is to question if anyone is truly a good guy or bad guy? The ambiguity basically. In Blade Runner movie from 1982. I am not even 100% sure if the protagonist is even a good guy? So it does a solid job at making me question who is in the right or wrong?

I probably need to get classic Film Noir movies in the future. This movie was well made!

Likely will start by watching "Phantom Lady" (Not to be confused for the super hero)

Phantom Lady (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deimos]

I think the idea of Noir character. Is to question if anyone is truly a good guy or bad guy? The ambiguity basically. In Blade Runner movie from 1982. I am not even 100% sure if the protagonist is even a good guy? So it does a solid job at making me question who is in the right or wrong?

I probably need to get classic Film Noir movies in the future. This movie was well made!

Likely will start by watching "Phantom Lady" (Not to be confused for the super hero)

Phantom Lady (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are numerous online discussions about noir, not least Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't always right, but its a good starting point.
You might consider going there first.
Or HERE if you want to avoid Wikipedia.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Yes I’ve seen Laura, fabulous movie. I think the first noir I ever saw was The Maltese Falcon, it’s a good one to start with if you want to start watching some of the classics.