The Ringwraiths - how efficient?

Ithrynluin · Dec 10, 2004

After Frodo is stabbed on Weathertop, Aragorn 'goes missing' and reappears later saying:

The Fellowship of the Ring; Flight to the Ford
'I am not a Black Rider, Sam,' he said gently, 'nor in league with them. I have been trying to discover something of their movements; but I have found nothing. I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again. But there is no feeling of their presence anywhere at hand.'

Why didn't they attack?

Aragorn goes on to say:

'I think I understand things better now,' he said in a low voice. 'There seem only to have been five of the enemy. Why they were not all here, I don't know; but I don't think they expected to be resisted. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further. I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will.

That provides some insight into why the Nazgul suspended their attack, but it is still only a partial answer. There were five of them around, and they were facing four hobbits and a Man. There was probably not a living soul to be found for leagues around and it was pitch dark, so the 'setting' was perfect since their greatest asset is fear. Couldn't they have wrested the Ring from Frodo by force and get over with their quest once and for all?

They quickly decided to leave Weathertop as soon as possible. 'I think now,' said Strider, 'that the enemy has been watching this place for some days. If Gandalf ever came here, then he must have been forced to ride away, and he will not return. In any case we are in great peril here after dark, since the attack of last night, and we can hardly meet greater danger wherever we go.'

We seem to be given mixed signals as to the power of the Ringwraiths. How did they manage to drive Gandalf off? But not Aragorn & co.?

The Nine failed in delivering the One to Sauron their master. They were the Dark Lord's greatest servants. Just how efficient and worthy were they, overall?

Halasían · Dec 10, 2004

Ithrynluin said:
1. Why didn't they attack?

2. Couldn't they have wrested the Ring from Frodo by force and get over with their quest once and for all?

3. How did they manage to drive Gandalf off? But not Aragorn & co.?

4. The Nine failed in delivering the One to Sauron their master. They were the Dark Lord's greatest servants. Just how efficient and worthy were they, overall?

1. It puzzled Aragorn why they didn't attack, but possibly the answer was tied to the fact the Nazgul spent alot of effort in their bout with Gandalf (remember the appearance of wjhat looked like lightning in the distance?)

2. Aragorn, the heir of Elendil, proved to be more of a match than other men, hence foiling their attack on Frodo. Under the circumstances they were at the time satisfied with the wound of the Morgul-blade, and would look to take the ring when they were together as nine.

3. They did in effect "drive off" Aragorn and co. since they could not stay there any longer than they did. Gandalf for his part make a stand before them, but who knows how many Nazgul there were that Gandalf faced at Amon Sûl. This encounter must have taken much strength from the Nazgul who opposed him.

4. I think they were quite efficient servants considering that the Witch King managed to effectively destroy the Northern Kingdom, and another was left in charge of Dol Guldor. However, being slaves to Sauron, surely they didn't do everything as they should.

Of course the obvious answer to #4 is .. It wouldn't have been a good story to read if they took the ring at Amon Sûl and delivered it to Sauron.

Ithrynluin · Dec 10, 2004

Hi Silvanis. Nice to see you.

1. It puzzled Aragorn why they didn't attack, but possibly the answer was tied to the fact the Nazgul spent alot of effort in their bout with Gandalf (remember the appearance of wjhat looked like lightning in the distance?)

It seems plausible that the Nazgul were 'drained' from their confrontation with Gandalf.

By the way, what would that have looked like, you imagine? Did Gandalf have enough strength to fend them off, just long enough to make his escape, or was he unwilling to stay there or perhaps even didn't see any cause to stay so he left under pressure? Was Gandalf the Grey mightier than the (9) Ringwraiths?

2. Aragorn, the heir of Elendil, proved to be more of a match than other men, hence foiling their attack on Frodo. Under the circumstances they were at the time satisfied with the wound of the Morgul-blade, and would look to take the ring when they were together as nine.

Agreed. However, they were so close to the thing Sauron desired above all else, that I think they could have tried to take the Ring from Frodo, even at the risk of one of them being harmed by Aragorn.

Or is the Ringwraiths' prowess in battle close to non-existent? I'm sure that's not quite true, but it is so often stressed that fear is their main 'weapon' that it makes one wonder.

Ithrynluin · Dec 11, 2004

The Fellowship of the Ring; Many Meetings
On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once.

So not even two mighty warriors like Aragorn and Glorfindel could not defeat all the Nine by themselves, unless they two were riding.

It should be safe to assume that both Aragorn and Glorfindel would easily win a one-on-one battle against a single Ringwraith, possibly even more than one.

When the Black Captain confronts Gandalf in Minas Tirith, he speaks arrogantly, as if theere was no chance for Gandalf to defeat him. Was he simply bluffing or being cocky and overconfident? Or are there other factors and circumstances to be considered here?

GuardianRanger · Dec 11, 2004

Personally, I think he speaks arrogantly because he is assuming Gandalf is a man, and he (The Black Captain) is thinking of the prophesy that he can't be killed by a man. That's my take.

Ithrynluin · Dec 12, 2004

That seems like a good explanation, but then again I find it hard to believe that Sauron's second in command would not know what beings Saruman and Gandalf really were, since Sauron did learn that. I see no reason why he would have kept this from the Black Captain.

GuardianRanger · Dec 12, 2004

Ithrynluin said:
That seems like a good explanation, but then again I find it hard to believe that Sauron's second in command would not know what beings Saruman and Gandalf really were, since Sauron did learn that. I see no reason why he would have kept this from the Black Captain.

Definitely a fair point. He may have know, but just considered him in with the other MEN as far as the prophesy went.

Maybe if Gandalf were a female, or a hobbit....

Greenwood · Dec 13, 2004

The Fellowship of the Ring; Many Meetings
On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once.

An important part of the above quote is that Glorfindel and Aragorn are on foot. Not only are they outnumbered by better than four to one, the Nazgul were mounted and were attacking them in the open. This is a considerable disadvantage no matter how evenly matched Glorfindel and Aragorn might have been with individual or even multiple Ringwraiths.

As for Gandalf facing the Nine at Weathertop, when Gandalf gives his account of the incident at the Council of Elrond, though he does use the word "escape" in referring to his leaving Weathertop this is only after holding off all the Nine by himself through the night. He also says that he left there and headed for Rivendell because there was nothing else he could accomplish there. He couldn't find Frodo and company in the Wild and he says that he hoped to draw off some of the Nazgul in pursuit of him to give Aragorn and Frodo a better chance. In this he was successful. Thus it is not entirely accurate to say the Nazgul "drove off" Gandalf. Gandalf made a strategic withdrawal with the hope of weakening the enemy. (In this he was successful.) If Gandalf had stayed at Weathertop defying the Nine, Aragorn, Frodo and company would have walked into all nine Nazgul.

As for why the Nazgul did not press their attack on Frodo and company at Weathertop, Aragorn has answered that. They knew they had wounded Frodo with a Morgul blade and thought it was only a question of a short time before Frodo would be fully in their power and deliver the Ring to them. Why fight Aragorn, a warrior of unknown strength who had already shown he had at least some immunity to their main weapon of fear, when you can just gather your own strength and have the object of your hunt delivered to you?

One final point. I see no reason to expect Sauron to share any information about much of anything with his underlings. He is a far more powerful entity than the Ringwraiths, who afterall are just men. Evil dictators (and Sauron goes beyond that description) are not known for their trusting and sharing natures.

Ithrynluin · Dec 13, 2004

Great points.

Greenwood said:
As for why the Nazgul did not press their attack on Frodo and company at Weathertop, Aragorn has answered that. They knew they had wounded Frodo with a Morgul blade and thought it was only a question of a short time before Frodo would be fully in their power and deliver the Ring to them. Why fight Aragorn, a warrior of unknown strength who had already shown he had at least some immunity to their main weapon of fear, when you can just gather your own strength and have the object of your hunt delivered to you?

They seemed awfully sure that Frodo would turn to their control and that the hobbits would not elude them in the wild lands. Seems like over-confidence is often the reason why evil ultimately falls.

One final point. I see no reason to expect Sauron to share any information about much of anything with his underlings. He is a far more powerful entity than the Ringwraiths, who afterall are just men. Evil dictators (and Suaron goes beyond that description) are not known for their trusting and sharing natures.

I disagree here. Since the Nazgul were wholly under the dominion of Sauron's will, additional knowledge could only benefit them, as they could not use it for their own ends. The knowledge that Gandalf is a Maia could perhaps have made the Witch King more wary in dealing with Gandalf at Minas Tirith. Additionally, the Mouth of Sauron is a fitting example here - he knew much of the mind of Sauron. Sauron is not a one man army. He had a huge realm with thousands upon thousands of minions and for it to run like a smooth machine would require him to divulge certain information to at least the greater of his servants.

Thráin II · Jan 1, 2005

Indeed, Gandalf must have wearied all the Nazgul that he fought that night on Amon Sul, but I don't think that all the nine were there that night. At least, I don't think the Witch King of Angmar was there because if he had been he would have know that Gandalf is not a man, and since he didn't (or seemed not to) know this in Minas Tirith, we can assume he wasn't there.

So Gandalf made a stand against as many as 8 of the Nazgul, but without their Lord.

Their effectiveness is arguable, however, especially during the War of the Ring.

Basically, every assigment that was given to them, they failed:

- they failed to get the ring from Frodo in the Shire and on Weathertop
- they failed to successfully assail Minas Tirith
- they failed to get to Mount Doom in time to stop the destruction of the ring

Of course, while they were powerful and induced fear and were invaluable in close-quarter combat, they were strategically useless most of the time.

As for Aragorn and Gandalf and fighting the Nine, I'll show you a quote I used before on these forums but eh, it's a favourite of mine so live with it

They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.

The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter 12, Flight to the Ford

The quote clearly states that there are at least some in Rivendell who can ride openly against the Nine (this I think means they can match them in mounted battle). One is obviously Glorfindel, the others I suspect are the sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir.

From the quote we can also deduce that Gandalf is one who can also ride openly against the Nine, both because he is probably a better rider/warrior that most in Rivendell and also because of the fact that the riders were sent out because Aragorn & co were helpless because Gandalf was not with them, had he been the riders would perhaps not have been dispatched.

As for Aragorn's ability to fight the Nine, he fared well against five of them on Weathertop, when they were on equal grounds, so we have no reason to believe he could not have taken on the other four as well.

On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once.

This planely states that on horesback, they could have. By simple logic, we can imagine that they could have withstood them also if the Nine were on foot.

Bit complicated here, maybe someone can better explain the advantages of being on horesback?

Anyway, just my two cents.

Bombadillo · Jan 6, 2005

at wheathertop, they didn't return because of the simple fact that the stab with the morgul blade would simply turn frodo into a ringwraith in a few days, they just had to wait... When they found out that frodo would reach Rivendell before that time, the came into action again, but it was unneceserry to do this before that time.

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The Ringwraiths - how efficient?

Ithrynluin

seeker of solace

Halasían

A Retired Dúnedain Ranger Fishing Lake Evendim

Ithrynluin

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Ithrynluin

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GuardianRanger

Calmindon

Ithrynluin

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GuardianRanger

Calmindon

Greenwood

The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

Ithrynluin

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Thráin II

King in exile

Bombadillo

Skipping right along

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