Something about the Athrabeth that doesn't add up.

In the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, or rather The Tale of Adanel, it is stated that Men fell because they were ensnared by Melkor, and that after they had been taught first by Eru, someone came among them:

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful;...

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And they followed him, instead of Eru, and that caused their Fall.

From what I have read and understood, that being is supposed to be Morgoth. But how can that be? Men awoke at the coming of the Moon (or the Sun, I don't remember). And that did not occur until after Morgoth had escaped from Valinor. Now, what does it say about Morgoth's ability to change form after teaming up with Ungoliant?

Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.

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Possible theories (as far as I can think):
a) It was Sauron that deceived Men, and brought about their First Fall.
b) The Athrabeth cannot be taken into account in comparison to the Published Silmarillion, because the Athrabeth is written on background of the Edain coming to life shortly after the Eldar.
c) It was a slip of the pen.

In tolkien's latter writings he was changing the mythology so that Men awoke close after the Elves. See Myths Transformed for more info.
Mew awakening with the Sun and Moon was a Mannish 'myth' and a Numenorean mistake when compling the Silmarillion.

I know.
That is why the idea of Morgoth personally appearing among Men, doesn't make sense to me.
Or it could be because I am missing something, and that is why I ask this question.

I think your option (b) pretty much clinches it, Arvedui. Tolkien is quite clear, in several instances, that it is Morgoth himself who came among men; even in the Published Silmarillion this is the official version. What happened, as I see it, is the change in the chronology that Inderjit refered to.

If Tolkien was alive and wanted to publish the Silmarillion, this is probably one of the first thing he'd change; or at least he would make it more explicit in the text that the version in which men awoke with the first rising of the Sun is a mannish legend.

(What a nice trick to change earlier views, isn't it? )

Unfortunately, the version in which men awake with the Sun is much more poetic, and fitting, and proper, etc. etc. etc. (in my opinion). But I think that the Athrabeth is something very close to Tolkien's heart; he would either never publish it for that reason, or reorganize the mythology to accomodate it.

LotR is, essentially, what is being termed as a 'later writing', as it is more consistant with an extant Sun and Moon well before Fingolfin set foot in Beleriand (and thus by implication a much earlier awakening for Men).

Originally posted by Inderjit S
In tolkien's latter writings he was changing the mythology so that Men awoke close after the Elves. See Myths Transformed for more info.
Mew awakening with the Sun and Moon was a Mannish 'myth' and a Numenorean mistake when compling the Silmarillion.

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But even there, Tolkien did write that Melkor was in dark form ever after he ravished Arie, which was before the coming of the Children of Iluvatar.

Maybe Numenoreans invented that he was in fair form, to lessen some guilt or shame for having been suckers? Or not necessarily with the intention of adding or changing the legend, but at some point men could have thought it fair to assume that Melkor must have looked nice, otherwise why would they have taken the bait. Chaff with the corn?

But even there, Tolkien did write that Melkor was in dark form ever after he ravished Arie, which was before the coming of the Children of Iluvatar.

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He lost the chance to assume a fair form after his incarnation. He appeared in fair form the Eldar and Valar after he did to Men.

. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

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Osanwe-Kwenta

Inderjit, are you telling me that explaination for why Morgoth became incarnate goes for the little narrative Tolkien wrote regarding the Sun and Moon in the Round Earth cosmology?

you advise people to "In tolkien's latter writings he was changing the mythology so that Men awoke close after the Elves. See Myths Transformed for more info."

And if they do go look for more info they will find that bit I mentioned in my last post.

So I'm just asking how about the narrative bit Tolkien did write, where the Sun is tainted by Morgoth's touch and he is burned and dark ever after?
I'm not saying peple should go by this version, not even close, it does not go hand in hand with The Silmarillion. I think it is fair to say this belongs to a 'mythology' that we never got.

So what do you or anyone else who has read Myth's Transformed make of the bit about Melkor being burned into dark form by ravishing the Sun?

My point was that even this rewriting of the mythology seems to contradict the Tale of Adanel... and it apears to me that in this bit of rewriting, Melkor's incarnation came about because he was burned crispy. Is this wrong?

The idea that men woke up much earlier, if placed in The Silmarillion, for example, will explain how Morgoth was in fair form when he met men. However Myth's Transformed itself does contradict Adanel's Tale, or does it? Am I missing something?

Note, it doesn't say he could never assume fair form again, it says that his brightness was dimmed and he remained forever dark. Earlier on in the text we learn that Morgoth coveted and desired light and that his image was one of great mightiness, and he did this in order to convey his splendour to the Eruhíni, when they awoke. It never says he couldn't alter his form after that, so he could assume fair forms. That would have been a radical change in the mythology, since he was supposed to have assumed a fair form within Valinor and when he was released from the Mandos, and in essays that come after we have no reference to such a radical change.

Upon coming to Avathar and seeking Ungoliant it is said that Melkor

put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.

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So should we take the 'men awaking shortly after the elves' as fact then?

Did Melkor fool Men just like Sauron fooled the Mirdain many ages later? By posing as one of the benevolent emissionaries from 'the Gods'?

Originally posted by ithrynluin

So should we take the 'men awaking shortly after the elves' as fact then?

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No, I don't think so!
In this matter I think we will have to go with what is in the published Silmarillion. Myths Transformed is little more than a few thoughts brought to paper, but Tolkien never went any further down that road.

I have got to raed other Tolkien books.

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Yes, you do.
My advice is to read the Hobbit and The Silmarillion first. Then you can continue with Unfinished Tales, before you start looking for more books. There are u number of members on TTF whi will be glad to give you advice on what to read next. There are also quite a few threads concerning this around.
Good luck, and good reading.

No, I don't think so!
In this matter I think we will have to go with what is in the published Silmarillion. Myths Transformed is little more than a few thoughts brought to paper, but Tolkien never went any further down that road

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It's not only Myths Transformed (HoME 10) that goes with that theory. The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (HoME 10) Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12) and Quendi and Eldar who all seem to be working with a pre-existing Sun+Moon theory, and thus the earlier awakening of Men. We cannot discount it as a simple alternative view, not fully explored by Tolkien. It had been around for some time and is evident in all of his later essays. If you want to look at Tolkien's view of the Quenta Silmarillion then it was said to be a Numenorean work, the Sun+Moon theory given in there was a Numenorean myth.

In fact, as a member of this forum, Tar-Elenion notes, there is no reference to a canonical work of Tolkien that deals with M-E in detail (LoTR, The Hobbit, Road Goes Ever On) that contradicts this theory in fact in some cases it seems to support it. Durin's Day for example, the start of the Dwarvish new year, when the Sun and Moon are both in the sky, seems ot be a long-standing tradition of Dwarves to mark the new year, not one that was started after the F.A, though it is of course possible. More explicit is the reference to the Moon in Gimli's song about Durin's wanderings. Or what about the reference to "Elf Children in the deeps of time peering out of the wild wood in wonder at their first dawn". Of course this quote is open to interpretation. You could even put it down to some romanticism on the part of Merry and Pippin (Who most probably wrote or aided in the writing of the chapters The Uruk-Hai and Treebeard. The quote I have provided appears in The Uruk-Hai, which is written from the perspective of Pippin, because of his larger parts in the events that transpired in the chapter, his dropping of the brooch, his cutting of his cords and Merry's promise to let Pippin have his own chapter in Biblo’s book)

By posing as one of the benevolent emissionaries from 'the Gods'

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I don't understand what you're saying here? That Melkor posed as a emissary from the Gods? But Men had no idea of who the Gods were. He blasphemed Eru and claimed to be the all-powerful God.

Well I still go with B)

A and C are for me fallacious. Melkor is, in Tolkien's mythology the devil, not Sauron. Sauron is a lesser incarnation of evil. Melkor is the original source of all evil. Therefore Melkor has to retain his role as the tempter of Men, and the cause of their _supposed_ downfall.

C) A slip of the pen? Tolkien was pretty fastidious, and I do not think that such important matters can be accounted as being mere "slips".

The who "new mythology" which Tolkien was working on was hardly a slip either. He worked on the basis of a new mythology from the later 1950's.

Inderjit S said:

I don't understand what you're saying here? That Melkor posed as a emissary from the Gods? But Men had no idea of who the Gods were. He blasphemed Eru and claimed to be the all-powerful God.

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Men didn't have to have the idea of what Melkor was doing. Bottom line - Melkor did what Sauron had done later on - he pretended to be some good, noble being and thus seduce Men/Elves into following a ruinous path.

And B) seems the most plausible to me as well.

Inderjit S said:

In fact, as a member of this forum, Tar-Elenion notes, there is no reference to a canonical work of Tolkien that deals with M-E in detail (LoTR, The Hobbit, Road Goes Ever On) that contradicts this theory in fact in some cases it seems to support it.

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Well I didn't see Tar-Elenion say exactly that, but anyhow what do you say to this from LotR appendix F: "There Thingol Greycloak of Doriath was their king, and in the long twilight their tongue had changed with the changefulness of mortal lands and had become far estranged from the speech of the Eldar from beyond the Sea."


What is this use of "twilight". Poetic? Clouds of Melkor who was in Mandos at the time?

Men didn't have to have the idea of what Melkor was doing. Bottom line - Melkor did what Sauron had done later on - he pretended to be some good, noble being and thus seduce Men/Elves into following a ruinous path.

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Eru still thought it was a blasphemy as did the Valar. I understand it was a unfair on Men who were by and large ignorant of Melkor and his designs.

Their rejection of Eru as the creator, was a lot worse then anything the Elves of Ost-in-Edhil did, despite their ignorance.

What is this use of "twilight". Poetic? Clouds of Melkor who was in Mandos at the time?

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May be poetic.

Also noticed several other things which refute my claim. The only one (and the major one) that comes to my head, atm, is Bombadil's description of the history of Arda to the hobbits. It pretty much follows the old: trees--->Sun+Moon theory.

Confusticated said:

"There Thingol Greycloak of Doriath was their king, and in the long twilight their tongue had changed with the changefulness of mortal lands and had become far estranged from the speech of the Eldar from beyond the Sea." What is this use of "twilight". Poetic? Clouds of Melkor who was in Mandos at the time?

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Robert Foster defines Twilight twice in his A Guide To Middle Earth; one of them reads: "A period early in the First Age of Middle-earth, perhaps the domination of Morgoth."

this book cost me one dollar and fifty cents and was published before The Silmarillion

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Treebeard's Tale of the Ents and Entwives

Treebeard says: "Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom." Before the coming of this "Darkness" however, the Entwives "gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests"

The chronology: the Entwives make gardens to live in, but the Ents went on wandering, and only came to the gardens now and then. "Then when the Darkness came in the North. . ." And Treebeard had also said this about Orks: "It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; . . ."

And and! Treebeard explained that the Elves began waking up trees: "But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over the Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves, and made songs about days that would never come again."

Thus, it appears to me that when the Great Darkness came, the Elves passed Over Sea (or fled and so on) -- yet when the Darkness came in the North, again, there was already sunshine, according to the tale of the Ents and Entwives.

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Hammond and Scull write (two entries) in The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion, chapter Treebeard:

"Great Darkness -- the time of Morgoth's domination of Middle-earth"

"When The Darkness came in the North -- again, the darkness that came from Morgoth. The Ents and Entwives therefore separated millennia before the present moment in the story."

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Morgoth's possible Period of Darkness in the Silmarillion

After the destruction of the Lamps, Melkor built his strength, and the evil things he had perverted walked abroad, and he gathered the Balrogs about him. "And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of diverse shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread ever southward over Middle-earth." Of the Coming of The Elves

Of course, here the Elves are said to know little of the riding of the might of the West against the North (in the beginning of their days), and though long and grievous was the siege of Utumno, and may battles were fought before its gates, the tale relates "of which naught but the rumour is known to the Elves."

Nonetheless, what follows is that many Elves cross the Sea! And in The Silmarillion, the Elves who or whom passed over the Sea, did so before the Sun and Moon were made. And after the death of the Trees, we have also the Hiding of Valinor. And of course, with the Return of the Noldor, we ultimately have the rising of the Moon and Sun.

Upon Morgoth's Return (or earlier)

Before Morgoth's escape back to Middle-earth, the Dwarves spoke to King Thingol of fell beasts, and: "in the land east of the mountains, and your ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains to the hills."

[flying Elves]

And ere long the fell beasts come to Beleriand, and among them are orcs, even if few and wary, "awaiting the return of their lord". Therefore, King Thingol took thought of arms.

And with Morgoth's return to Middle-earth and Angband, it's told that the orcs that had multiplied issued from Angband's gates (under the clouds that Morgoth sent forth), and assailed King Thingol.

And then. . . well you know.

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What's the point of this post? Eru knows! But I have long pondered the following. . .

. . . does the Reader who has read only what Tolkien himself published* think there was a time in Middle-earth where Elves, Men, Ents, beasties. . . were all doing stuff before the Sun existed?

Or does even Bombadil's description to the hobbits necessarily mean the world was once actually flat? How many first-time readers thought Bombadil meant this? Or moreover, were certain that Bombadil meant this?

No doubt terms like "Twilight", "The Change of the World" and Bombadil's description can be interpreted in light of Tolkien's posthumously published ideas, but read on their own. . . or read from Tolkien's perspective -- that is, looking through his eyes with respect to what his readership at large did, and did not know. . .

. . . well, I think Tolkien liked playing with certain terms. After all, for example, "The Change of the World" need not mean a flat world actually made round! And I don't think it's getting "scientific" to say it refers to the removal of Aman from The Circles of the World.

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*observant readers can point to a line in the first and second editions of The Hobbit here; however JRRT himself revised the line in question for the Third Edition.

Elthir said:

[flying Elves]

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I always suspected Elves had wings.

But they only fly during periods of darkness.