In the Caves of the Forgotten. . .then what?

HLGStrider · Dec 28, 2003

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

Reading this gave me two very different ideas.

One: During the Last Battle, Melkor will break open the Caves of the Forgotten and claim Ar-Pharazon as his thrall. Then Ar-Pharazon will fight against the Valar, eventually being defeated and punished for his evils.

Two: During the Last Battle, Ar-Pharazon and his men will be called upon by the Valar to fight for them against Melkor in order to redeem himself and make up for the evils he has caused.

Both of these have a certain appeal. Both would be dramatic. One has a sense of mercy, the other of justice.

Which is more likely? I think most of us will prefer two. However, one seems more likely based on Ar-Pharazon's reputation. . .though two seems more likely based on Manwe's reputation for forgiving.

Another option is that Ar-Pharazon and his men will have a choice, to repent and join the Valar or remain with Melkor who they alligned themselves with.

A fourth option is that the cave will collapse and they'll all be destroyed or something like that.

Does anyone have a fifth? What do you think of mine?

Just wondering. . .

Helcaraxë · Dec 29, 2003

HLGStrider said:
A fourth option is that the cave will collapse and they'll all be destroyed or something like that.

Hmm..but their immortal souls would live on in the Timeless Halls. It's the same kind of problem as Turin "slaying" Melkor.

But your ideas are good.

MB

HLGStrider · Dec 29, 2003

I know their good ideas. All my ideas are good.

I wanted to know which was the best idea and if any of the ideas were backable by the text.

HLGStrider · Jun 17, 2005

Anyone else know?

Alatar · Jun 18, 2005

I think that they will have a choice, as will all men, i think that at the last battle, all men and elves wil be set lose, to fight for Melkor, of the valar. And i think that if i am right the last battle will be great, imagine the LAST ride of the rohirrm, charging down over the plains, millons of them!
Another option is that on the day of doom, they will be reopend and judged by eru for the next song.

Hammersmith · Jun 18, 2005

Well the "Everyone joins Melkor" scenario seems very Antichrist-esque, which could be Tolkien's intention. Alternatively, I can't help being reminded of the caverns in the north in Narnia, shown in The Silver Chair and The Last Battle, where creatures issue forth with Old Father Time and make an end of the world. Maybe something like this is planned for these poor bods?

HLGStrider · Jun 19, 2005

It is similar imagery, but I don't think of these characters are peacefully sleeping in the caves waiting to be awakened. I think they are trapped there, possibly in a manner more reminiscent of the Paths of the Dead.

Hammersmith · Jun 20, 2005

Oh, I know. But it was more the similarity that they could be contained somewhere far off and beneath the earth to be released in an apocalyptic scenario that I saw.

grendel · Jun 20, 2005

I think they'll sit there and miss the whole thing, because they've been... um, forgotten.

Wraithguard · Jun 22, 2005

Some of your ideas involve punishment after they are liberated. Their punishment is similar to Henry Townshends predicament in Silent Hill 4 where he is chained in his room. They will simply wait there until the end. Then when that end comes, they will be liberated. They will be released to fight in the final battle. Like all of man it doesn't matter who they are told to fight for. They will join whoever they wish beit good or evil. But they must be made to live through the battle to keep their souls out of Valinor. Which in my opinion, they would be the only people to remain in the East, even after the end.

Alatar · Jun 23, 2005

Well i alway's think that if the got a alarm clock, set it for the end of the world, then they'd know.

Ingwë · Jun 24, 2005

Why do you think that Melkor will come back? I think he is not powerful enough?

However, I think that if Melkor returns he will claim the King because Ar-Pharazon was corrupted my Melkor's servanr Sauron and the Númenorean think that the God is Melkor. I don't think he will help the Valar - he attacked Valinor, his realm was destroyed by Eru. C'mon, Ar-Pharazon would destroy the Valar if he could but he is not enought powerful. He is just a Man corrupted by Sauron!

Alatar · Jun 25, 2005

Ingwë said:
Why do you think that Melkor will come back? I think he is not powerful enough?

It is the second doom of Mandos, the valar will let the watch on Melkor stop as they will get bored with time, then he will come back in through the door of night, and the last battle will be fought, where Turin shall kill Melkor with the and the two threes rekindeled, and the pelori will be leveled so that the light spreads all over the world.

baragund · Jun 27, 2005

Interesting discussion! Thanks, Elgee, for bringing this thread back to life.

This situation makes me think of the dead warriors in LOTR that Aragorn compelled to fight on the Pellenor Fields. Those people turned to evil and worship of Sauron but then feigned to ally themselves with Gondor. They were cursed by the King of Gondor when they doublecrossed him and the result was being held in an awful state of purgatory until Aragorn released them from the curse.

It seems similar with Ar-Pharazon's host. Their physical bodies must have perished when they were buried in the Caves but their spirits are not allowed to pass on to the place where other Men's souls go (wherever that might be). At the Last Battle, they are freed somehow. I imagine they, like other Men, will once again be given a choice who they would fight for. I would like to think that there would be some portion of these Men who would have repented, seen the error of their King's ways, and join the Valar, despite being cooped up in a cave for untold millenia.

Clear as mud?

Thorondor_ · Jun 27, 2005

It is the second doom of Mandos, the valar will let the watch on Melkor stop as they will get bored with time, then he will come back in through the door of night, and the last battle will be fought, where Turin shall kill Melkor with the and the two threes rekindeled, and the pelori will be leveled so that the light spreads all over the world.

This makes you think, would you ever get bored if you know your boredom will bring the mother of all evils back into the world?

No wonder Dostoievski said that evil begins with a boredom.

Alatar · Jun 28, 2005

I know, why dosn't Manwe just call up the valar, " Right lads, every 10,000 years we change watch, till we see melkor, then we get Tulkas to smash him in the face."

Thorondor_ · Jun 29, 2005

Alatar said:
I know, why dosn't Manwe just call up the valar, " Right lads, every 10,000 years we change watch, till we see melkor, then we get Tulkas to smash him in the face."

I certainly do agree with that

. They ought to know the power of a prophecy. But, maybe this is what Eru wants and the valar accept their destiny.

Alatar · Jun 30, 2005

Yes, how about a HUGE rubix cube, he for added fun it will work in four dimensions!
So if you get bored with enernal life, make a jewl, get it stolen, follow the theif across the world, wage a losing war, that should keep you on your toes.

Thorondor_ · Jun 30, 2005

Yeah, and if Sauron isn't around, ask a fellow vala to fill in for the "bad guy"

Ingwë · Jul 1, 2005

Alatar said:
It is the second doom of Mandos, the valar will let the watch on Melkor stop as they will get bored with time, then he will come back in through the door of night, and the last battle will be fought, where Turin shall kill Melkor with the and the two threes rekindeled, and the pelori will be leveled so that the light spreads all over the world.

Thank you; in the Sil I read something about the Second Doom of Mandos but as far as I remember the text is not in the Sil. Where did you find it?

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