Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth - An Impromptu Discussion

I have added this discussion between Maedhros and myself on Messenger, in the hope that other members may wish to add comment or cast aspersions upon our standpoints. Alternatively, you may find it all rather dull and uninteresting and ask yourself why we did not spend our Saturday evenings doing more fun things Personally, I can't think of anything else I would rather have been doing at the time!!!

AncalagonTheBlack says:
I will tell you, I have just read through all of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
over the last few hours, what an absolutely fabulous and intense conversation
Maedhros says:
Yes it was
Maedhros says:
It brings points that remained away from the Silmarillion
AncalagonTheBlack says:
It does, it opens up a totally new vision of the understanding of mortality, both to Andreth and Finrod
Maedhros says:
Interesting belief that men had
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Well, I was considering asking the question; what did Morgoth do or say to Men in the beginning?
Maedhros says:
Deceive them
AncalagonTheBlack says:
With what?
Maedhros says:
False promises
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But they already knew in their hearts they were Children of a greater God,
Maedhros says:
In their hearts only
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Yes
Maedhros says:
I would venture to say that in the beginning
Maedhros says:
The lies of Melkor were very provoking to men
Maedhros says:
Advantageous if you will
AncalagonTheBlack says:
True, he held much in dominion over their will, but not enough that they desired to pursue their own lands, away from his domain
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Thus they met with the Eldar, a chance meeting.........not at all!
Maedhros says:
Ok
Maedhros says:
In a way it's sad that they were left alone
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I agree entirely, I think the role of the Valar in their case was utterly deplorable
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I do not think there can be any justification for their actions
Maedhros says:
I think that Manwë really blew it
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Have you read the Converse of Manwë and Eru, Appendix?
Maedhros says:
Yes
Maedhros says:
Ilúvatar said to Manwë that he had failed to act in time
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Is he above making an error, even though he is the greatest offshoot of the mind or Eru?
Maedhros says:
No, only Ilúvatar is flawless
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Exactly, but flawed decisions have such impact upon the weak
Maedhros says:
I am usually very hard on Manwë
Maedhros says:
But I’m beginning to change my mind
AncalagonTheBlack says:
This part struck me most in the discussion
AncalagonTheBlack says:
‘Then Andreth being urged by Finrod said at last: 'This is the tale that Adanel of the House of Hador told to me.
Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'
Maedhros says:
Very interesting
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.
AncalagonTheBlack says:
This seems to indicate, that even before the interjection of Melkor, they had already detached
AncalagonTheBlack says:
At least begun to
Maedhros says:
In the beginning things are difficult
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I think that there is a modicum of guilt in this, that the Wise would sooner blame the Unnamed One for their death, rather than their desire to 'go it alone' without the guidance of Eru
AncalagonTheBlack says:
That is why she was reluctant to discuss their past history with Finrod
Maedhros says:
Not their past history
Maedhros says:
Past myths
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Yet, always blaming it on 'the shadow'
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But were does myth start and truth end?
AncalagonTheBlack says:
It is still in their lore, of which she was wise
Maedhros says:
There is a glimpse of truth in all myths
AncalagonTheBlack says:
There is more to this passage than meets the eye, methinks
Maedhros says:
Yet, it cannot be considered canon
AncalagonTheBlack says:
What can? Even the Silmarillion in its entirety is somewhat debatable
AncalagonTheBlack says:
The discussion, left out of the Sil, but very much Tolkiens own leanings on the matter, must be considered canon
Maedhros says:
It can't be considered canon because it's a conversation between an elf and a women
Maedhros says:
They had their suspicions, but they are not necessarily truth
Maedhros says:
Close but not a certainty
Maedhros says:
Like for example Treebeard
Maedhros says:
He speaks in lotr but he is not one of the wise
Maedhros says:
As noted in the letters
Maedhros says:
And lotr is canon
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But there is one truth that Finrod speaks off in this discussion, that both he and she were brought together to realize a truth, neither had understood.... hope!
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I feel that Eru himself was Tolkien’s medium in this debate
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Fated, a discussion that happens to which many truths are realized
Maedhros says:
Truths only from the side of Finrod
Maedhros says:
Belief on the side of Andreth

End of Part One

Part Two

AncalagonTheBlack says:
It is an extremely intense discussion, but a great many understandings are brought forth
Maedhros says:
What makes it more interesting is that the Sil lacks such in-depth conversations
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I agree entirely, but I also hold to the fact that the Sil might have lost much of its mystery had this been included
AncalagonTheBlack says:
There is too much in this that lends to allegory, possibly Tolkien preferred it to be separated, to protect the authenticity of the Sil in its original form
Maedhros says:
Like the myths transformed essays
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Yes,
AncalagonTheBlack says:
He almost reveals himself too much in these works
Maedhros says:
In a way
Maedhros says:
But one gains much understanding
Maedhros says:
Like in Manwë
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Absolutely, but somehow I feel it is better to have gleaned this knowledge long after reading the Sil, the History as it was written then, to where we are now, better informed, yet still grasping
Maedhros says:
I learned much about Manwë in bolt 1
AncalagonTheBlack says:
'You speak strange words, Finrod,' said Andreth, 'which I have not heard before. Yet my heart is stirred as if by some truth that it recognizes even if it does not understand it. But fleeting is that memory, and goes ere it can be grasped; and then we grow blind.
Maedhros says:
The Chaining of Melko
AncalagonTheBlack says:
That sums me up
Maedhros says:
A thing that you forgot to mention in the Athrabeth Is the way the elves feels about their own fate
AncalagonTheBlack says:
The Elves 'according to Finrod' which as the wisest, may not be the truth of all
Maedhros says:
The Valar doesn't know either
AncalagonTheBlack says:
It is essential in this to empathize with Finrod (The greatest Elf - I have always called him) as he himself realized many answers to questions he thought he knew the answer too, especially in relation to the Atani
Maedhros says:
Finrod is no the greatest
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Of course he is
Maedhros says:
No
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Frodo is empty, Finrod is greatest
AncalagonTheBlack says:
LOL
Maedhros says:
One thing that people forget about Finrod is this
Maedhros says:
He didn't love his father that much really
Maedhros says:
Not as much as Fëanor did
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But he loved Eru more
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Who is more important?
Maedhros says:
If he had more love for his father
Maedhros says:
He wouldn't have left with the exiles
Maedhros says:
I know that Fëanor wouldn't
AncalagonTheBlack says:
You cannot deny that many, including Finrod, were presented with stark choices, it did not make them weak, pathetic or unworthy or greatness
Maedhros says:
Finarfin stayed
AncalagonTheBlack says:
The great deeds for them all came after, after their departure and in their greatest woes
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Finarfin is a separate entity in this matter, as you well know, Finrod was driven by more than a love of the Valar, or even his own father
Maedhros says:
If he was so noble, why didn't he turned back in the Kinslaying?
Maedhros says:
Finrod went with Beren because of the oath
Maedhros says:
I have always wondered if there were no oath, would he have gone with Beren?
AncalagonTheBlack says:
And because of his love for Man and especially Beren himself
Maedhros says:
Now, Fingon is the elf
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Do you think the Wisest of the Eldar would do this irrationally?
Maedhros says:
Wisest of the ones that went to exile
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Wisest of all!
Maedhros says:
Not a chance in hell
Maedhros says:
He had pride too
Maedhros says:
Finarfin overcame his, Finrod not
Maedhros says:
Or are you telling me that going to me was a good thing then
AncalagonTheBlack says:
It was not about a good thing at all, to fly in the face of the Valar, the Doom that beset them all, yet ever driven by the desire of leveling Melkor, where the Valar had failed, who then were also caught in the passion of Fëanors words, do you consider Galadriel a weak fool also...........unlike Finarfin
Maedhros says:
Galadriel didn't follow Fëanor
Maedhros says:
See Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But she made a choice, and she was captured by his words
Maedhros says:
You have the wrong version
Maedhros says:
In the last version, she was already going with Telporno when the rebellion broke out
Maedhros says:
And she was caught in it
Maedhros says:
See the letters of JRR Tolkien
AncalagonTheBlack says:
No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will. Of like mind with Galadriel was Fingon Fingolfin’s son, being moved also by Fëanors words, though he loved him little;
Maedhros says:
That is not the last version
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Ahhh, but what is Canon?
Maedhros says:
The latest writings
Maedhros says:
The latest ideas
AncalagonTheBlack says:
The latest, or the words Tolkien actually penned as he wrote the Sil in its early, printed form?

Here ends the bulk of the debate, please feel free to comment on our ramblings, if they make sense

I have definately learned something in reading this discussion.

What I would be interested in knowing is the exact literary texts that you have referenced throughout the discussion. I see that Maedhros mentions some later writings from 'the letters of Tolkien'...I would be interested in finding these texts if I could.

Thank you for sharing this with us Anc. It was really an eye opening experience for me.

Hmmmm, Anc, why does the Font on this page looks so huge?
This is what I was telling you about Galadriel:
From Unfinished Tales: History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

This story, withdrawing Galadriel from all association with the rebellion of Fëanor, even to the extent of giving her a separate departure (with Celeborn) from Aman, is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere. It arose from "philosophical" (rather than "historical") considerations, concerning the precise nature of Galadriel's disobedience in Valinor on the one hand, and her status and power in Middle-earth on the other. That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of The Silmarillion is evident; but that my father doubtless intended to do. It may be noted here that Galadriel did not appear in the original story of the rebellion and flight of the Noldor, which existed tong before she did; and also, of course, that after her entry into the stories of the First Age her actions could still be transformed radically, since The Silmarillion had not been published. The book as published was however formed from completed narratives, and I could not take into account merely projected revisions.

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Also look in the Letters of JRRT: 353

Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Fëanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration.

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This letter was written in 1973. Compare it with the following Letter:
From the Letters of JRRT: 320

I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return.

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Yet, this letter was written in 1971. I would put more weight on the idea of the letter 353, because it was written at a later time and also because of the passage in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hmmmm, Anc, why does the Font on this page looks so huge?

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Huge? I did tidy it up so it looked more presentable which is why I added the bold to our names, so it would be easier to differentiate between titles and posts.

all of my comments are in blue, everything in blue is mine.

AncalagonTheBlack says:
I will tell you, I have just read through all of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
over the last few hours, what an absolutely fabulous and intense conversation
Maedhros says:
Yes it was
AncalagonTheBlack says:
But they already knew in their hearts they were Children of a greater God,

I don't know if I agree with this. They did understand the voice in their hearts before they had words, but I think that if they knew in their hearts who Eru was and that what they heard was the voice of Eru, they may have followed the advice. This tale says nothing of Eru warning the children against someone, only a way of thinking/behaving. The voice of darkness warned the people against Eru, so who were they to trust? Had they been pre-warned by Eru that someone might come among them to deceive them, rather than being warned against themselves, things might have gone differently. Maybe Eru was testing men.


AncalagonTheBlack says:
True, he held much in dominion over their will, but not enough that they desired to pursue their own lands, away from his domain
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Thus they met with the Eldar, a chance meeting.........not at all!

I agree, this was not chance but the meeting of those men who maintained trust in the voice of Eru and distrust in the intruder with the Eldar from which came the defeat of Morgoth, and the saviour of "good" in the race of men.


Maedhros says:
In a way it's sad that they were left alone
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I agree entirely, I think the role of the Valar in their case was utterly deplorable
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I do not think there can be any justification for their actions


If there is I can't imagine what it would be, and probably only Eru would know it. Though I also think that the Valar were harsh in their treatment of the exiled Noldor.


AncalagonTheBlack says:
Is he above making an error, even though he is the greatest offshoot of the mind or Eru?
Maedhros says:
No, only Ilúvatar is flawless

When Eru speaks to Manwe about the Eldar having seperation of fea from hroa, he says that it is a thing that "we" did not expect, or foresee. Did Iluvatar honestly not know that the firstborn would suffer this? How could he not have known? And if he did know, why does he speak with Manwe saying "we". Does he pretend to Manwe to know less than he really knows.


AncalagonTheBlack says:
This seems to indicate, that even before the interjection of Melkor, they had already detached
AncalagonTheBlack says:
At least begun to

I agree. I think that the intruder would have played off of anything to turn these men against the voice of Eru.


AncalagonTheBlack says:
I think that there is a modicum of guilt in this, that the Wise would sooner blame the Unnamed One for their death, rather than their desire to 'go it alone' without the guidance of Eru
AncalagonTheBlack says:
That is why she was reluctant to discuss their past history with Finrod
Maedhros says:
Not their past history
Maedhros says:
Past myths

For men it was history, not myth. False perhaps, but their history as they knew it all the same. I think Ancalagon is right about Andreth withholding the tale because of guilt. I can't imagine why else she would have hesitated to tell Finrod.


Maedhros says:
It can't be considered canon because it's a conversation between an elf and a women
Maedhros says:
They had their suspicions, but they are not necessarily truth


If it is true that that conversation took place then the conversation is canon. The story of Adanel may not be fact, it is however fact that Adanel's people have that story to tell. A conversation where people speak things that are not fact can still be canon. There is charactor dialog in The Lord of the Rings and in The Hobbit, does this render the whole tale noncannon? No. The fact is that charactor dialog is always open to being wrong, what this has to do with canon I do not know.


Maedhros says:
And lotr is canon

Hmmm..
How can you make this statement consistent with your statement that the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is not canon because it is a conversation. Both contain both facts, and speculations by charactors.


AncalagonTheBlack says:
But there is one truth that Finrod speaks off in this discussion, that both he and she were brought together to realize a truth, neither had understood.... hope!
AncalagonTheBlack says:
I feel that Eru himself was Tolkien’s medium in this debate
AncalagonTheBlack says:
Fated, a discussion that happens to which many truths are realized
Maedhros says:
Truths only from the side of Finrod
Maedhros says:
Belief on the side of Andreth

I believe that Finrod is correct in most of his conculsions, but I see no way to believe that he could be right about all of this unless I believe, as Ancalagon said, that this was fated to be that way. I would like to think that it was, but why? Why Finrod and Andreth? What came of this? Did it somehow bring hope to both races? Did it reach further than Andreth and Finrod? And if not, what was the purpose of this only reaching them? Did this conversation cause Finrod to take different actions? Or Andreth?

How can you make this statement consistent with your statement that the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is not canon because it is a conversation. Both contain both facts, and speculations by charactors.

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Well, first, it was not published by JRRT. Perhaps I misused the word canon, regarding books and stories in the books.
The Hobbit and LOTR are canon books because they have already been published.
Home, cannot be considered canon because it was an ongoing and sadly not finished work of JRRT. It was unpublished by the author.
In a book, (canon = true), a story inside it does not necesarily is truth (there are always lies and misconceptions), even tough the book is published. Perhaps I should have used another word instead of canon, as to avoid confusion.

Maedhros says:
If he was so noble, why didn't he turned back in the Kinslaying?

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Maybe he thought Feanor and sons needed a baby sitter.

Maedhros says:
I have always wondered if there were no oath, would he have gone with Beren?

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I think we have no way of knowing how things might have been otherwise.
If Beren's people had saved Finrod's life, but there was no oath made (though I don't know how this situation would happen) then I think he would have.
Maybe he would not have if Beren's people had not done anything for Finrod or his people and was a stranger to him. But if not for the history with Finrod, Beren never would have went to Nargothrond for his aid in the first place.
Finrod was a King, and couldn't just run off to die at the drop of a hat (or crown), no matter how much Celegorm and Curufin might wish that we would.

Maedhros says:
One thing that people forget about Finrod is this
Maedhros says:
He didn't love his father that much really

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Ah, I must have forgot that line where Tolkien says "...But Finrod, who did not love his father that much..."
What do you mean by "that much"?
As much as Feanor loved his father?
One might say that Feanor's great dedication to his father was as much out of his lack of love or dedication to anyone else as it is for actual love of his father.

The thing is: Finrod loved everyone more than Feanor loved his own sons.

Maedhros says:
If he had more love for his father
Maedhros says:
He wouldn't have left with the exiles

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How do you figure this?

Maedhros says:
Galadriel didn't follow Fëanor

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I guess she didn't love him...
She must also not have loved her father much, by your reasoning, since she didn't follow him from Aman in the beginning.

The thing is: Finrod loved everyone more than Feanor loved his own sons.

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I wouldn't say that, ever.

Maybe he thought Feanor and sons needed a baby sitter.

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Or maybe it was his pride that stood in his way.

How do you figure this?

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Simple, when Fëanor took the oath, his sons leaped to his side because of their love of him.
Fëanor had many faults, but one thing that he showed was the love of his father, and that is why his sons always were with him.

She must also not have loved her father much, by your reasoning, since she didn't follow him from Aman in the beginning.

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By my reasoning, I would guess that as stated in a previous post of mine in this thread, she was already going to ME, and got caught up in the whole mess.

Since this thread is quite old, it would be nice to raise some new points or points already given, on the subject of the Athrabeth.

Were men really made mortal or were their lifespans cut short?
Was this fated?
Do you think death is a gift or a curse?
etc.

Maedhros said:

Perhaps I misused the word canon, regarding books and stories in the books.
The Hobbit and LOTR are canon books because they have already been published.
Home, cannot be considered canon because it was an ongoing and sadly not finished work of JRRT. It was unpublished by the author.
In a book, (canon = true), a story inside it does not necesarily is truth (there are always lies and misconceptions), even tough the book is published. Perhaps I should have used another word instead of canon, as to avoid confusion.

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No, Canon is fine! It is used of Christian scriptures, even by those who do not believe them, because of their status with 'the Author' and the Church.

Tolkien approved The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for publication, so for the sake of useful labelling, let's call them 'canon'. Christopher Tolkien was authorised by the Author to put The Silmarillion in order (rather like Bilbo giving his works to Frodo) so this is also canon, but secondary canon, or deuterocanonical if you're fond of Greek.

The HoMe series, however, was stuff that CT took it upon himself to edit and publish to give Tolkien fans a greater understanding of the creative process. First, second and third drafts, discarded concepts and plots are all included. These can only really be used as persuasives for Tolkien's thought processes, useful only as additional fodder for discussion or debates pertaining to the canon itself.

Having said that, many of the stories in HoMe stand up well as individual works to be discussed for their own merit. The dialogue is one such story, and a very late addition to the tales of Middle-earth. In his later years, Tolkien toyed with steering his Mythology to more closely match the cosmogeny of our own earth. The Dialogue seems to be an attempt to make the history of Middle-earth's race of Men more closely match the Christian concept of sin separating man from God. It may have been a personal musing, not intended to be grafted into the greater work (or rejected later); or he may have wanted to include it - we can not know unless other evidence surfaces. And for this reason, it cannot be considered canonical or deuterocanonical. er.. I think.

Eledhwen said:

The dialogue is one such story, and a very late addition to the tales of Middle-earth.

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1955-59 is perhaps late, but not “very late”.

Eledhwen said:

The Dialogue seems to be an attempt to make the history of Middle-earth's race of Men more closely match the Christian concept of sin separating man from God. It may have been a personal musing, not intended to be grafted into the greater work (or rejected later); or he may have wanted to include it - we can not know unless other evidence surfaces.

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According to Christopher, JRRT added on one of the newspapers in which the Athrabeth and the Commentary were preserved:

Should be last item in an appendix [i.e. to The Silmarillion].

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But whether the Athrabeth as published in Morgoth’s Ring is finished and ‘ready’ to be included is another matter.