A question about the beings created by melkor in the siege of angband

[d4rk3lf]

via actual published text (in official Tolkien books).

I ask mods not to join my 2 posts, so all is very clear.
We wrote post at the same time..

@Amon Rudh
You see?
Exactly this quoted where I think you got it wrong.
HOME is not official Tolkien book.
Only official Tolkien books are Hobbit and LOTR.
HOME is series of Books Christopher released, so we fan can enjoy in all the possibilities Tolkien had as an early sketch, and to get as much info as we can (and we are very thankful for that)

 

[Amon Rudh]

Cheers @d4rk3lf
I think you are right. I'm trying to read through the HOME books before reading the main texts again to get the evolution of them. Maybe I need to read them all like I plan but then just reread straight after the main books (Silmarillion, COH, Hobbit, LOTR) and perhaps it will sink in more.
I do plan to be reading Tolkien for the rest of my life, interspersed with lots of other books! Given I am now retired, I have a lot more time to digest these. I am one of many people that benefit from e.g. The Fall of Numenor, where the texts are brought together in one volume. I hope additional volumes will continue to be churned out 🙂

Ps by official Tolkien books I meant rather ones produced by the estate. I.e. not the dreaded David Day et al. I take your valid points though. 🙂

Pps I always hoped and expected the HOME books would provide the thinking behind and background info to the main books, even though compression would remove some of the length.
Perhaps it's not as simple as that. Sorry to the OP if we are far off topic but I hope this sort of discussion explains why many readers seem unsure of 'the facts'.

 

[d4rk3lf]

I do plan to be reading Tolkien for the rest of my life

Very wise plan if you ask me.
Tolkien book have so many charm and details, that I think even some person start and read it from 9 years old, in the 90 year old, he/she will still find something new and interesting.
If you are retired, I might suggest that you can also try and create something of his world in your own inspiration.
It doesn't matter if it's drawing, music, game, diorama.. it doesn't matter if it's professional or beginners work, I promise you, we all Tolkien fans, gonna love it.

 

[Elthir]

Also HOME 5 suggests that Melkor created Orcs in mockery after seeing Elves, not from Elves. See extracts below.

Yes, at this early-ish point the orcs were made of stone and hatred, and also made in mockery of Elves -- in my opinion proof that JRRT himself did not necessarily equate "made in mockery" with "made of" (a given thing). In even earlier writings . . .

1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs "bred of subterranean heats and slime" and they were the "foul broodlings of Melko"

1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs "of stone" with "hearts of hatred"

1940s and finishing up The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien, perhaps while writing The Lord of the Rings, possibly shifts from Morgoth "making" Orcs [using Frodo's word below] to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living -- as Frodo thinks might be the case -- although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from The Tower of Cirith Ungol:

"No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;" Appendix F states that the orcs were first "bred" by the Dark Power in the Elder Days.

Early 1950s: in The Annals of Aman as first written Melkor still "made" orcs from something -- but the idea now enters "Silmarillion related texts" that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolodh will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs. Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this phase of writing, incidentally.

Anyway, I wrote these last two paragraphs (copied here) before The Nature of Middle-Earth was published just in case something in there burns my toast!

 

[Amon Rudh]

@Elthir thanks for your valued contribution. This makes all so clear and this sort of cohesive progression in one volume is the sort of thing I hope/pray for in future volumes. That said perhaps when I actually get to read my copy of The Nature of Middle-earth, I may find that I already own one to some degree!

 

[Amon Rudh]

LOL. I had the answers all along. In the excellent Hammond and Scull LOTR Reader's Companion. Although in my defence I have not really read it yet.

 

[Amon Rudh]

At least that unusually long entry confirms the complexity of the evolution of the Orc origins and how much even our hero had to think about it all. No wonder we still debate it!

 

[Amon Rudh]

Right, I'll shut up now 🤣👍

 

[Elthir]

Elthir thanks for your valued contribution.

Thanks! I did a longer version (sort of an "orc-outline" of JRRT's changing mind about their origins)
in an older thread titled "Origin of orcs" (started somewhere in these halls back in 2012).

As you note Hammond and Scull noting, even after Tolkien introduced the distinction that Melkor cannot "create" orcs but must "make" them by corrupting something -- we have him [JRRT] musing about various ideas/things that the Evil Guys used to corrupt into Orcs!

Hammond and Scull are pretty awesome in any case!

 

[Amon Rudh]

Thanks for this lead. In case anyone wants to read @Elthir 's thread I located it here. As us often the case, it's been well covered in TTF.
Post in thread 'Origin of orcs' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/origin-of-orcs.20374/post-506047

 

[Ent]

Hammond and Scull LOTR Reader's Companion.

Indeed, that is an excellent work. Very good to pull alongside a read through LoTR and take it slowly, corresponding H & S with LoTR bit by bit as you go.