Although I am usually the first to defend PJ and the Films...

[NetherDemon]

I am in bewilderment. I have not seen the movie yet, and alot of what I hear and see are rumors - so it may all be just misinformation spread by purists or PJ haters. So I will continue to take this all with a grain of salt until I actually see the movie next Friday for myself.

But one rumor I keep seeing is that the theatrical version of LOTR: RotK will not have any resolution with Saruman or Wormtongue?

What?!?!

They are essentially the inner mechanism of the entire story! It is through these two vital characters that Sauron does his crafting and conspiring!

I can only hope this is just false. I was a little surprised that they weren't resolved at the end of the TTT:EE, so natrually to put this in the beginning of RotK was paramount! I would have even accepted PJ adding a showdown between Saruman and Gandalf! I would have loved that actually!

But put the books aside for a minute. Lets look at this purely from a movie-making standpoint.

Saruman is the main Antagonist of the entire trilogy. He is Gandalf's Foil. Saruman's armies were defeated at the end of TTT - but we clearly see him atop of his tower looking down in alarm. He is alive and well. So is his little buddy Wormtongue. Also remember Saruman is still WHITE WIZARD and has years of experience over Gandalf. Saruman CERTAINLY can escape the tower unharmed to continue to wreak havoc on Middle Earth!

To not resolve him is rediculous! Sure, PJ could do this in the Extended Edition - but why the hell would you take it out of the theatrical version? THAT is the fundamental storytelling version that the world will see!! Why would PJ reward DVD owners and not moviegoers?

I am puzzled. I seek guidance.

 

[Melko Belcha]

The scene of Saruman is out. From what I have read about the premeire in NZ the scene was cut just as the rumors have said and Christopher Lee was not at the premeire, just as the rumors said he wouldn't. From what I have heard the Houses of the Healing has also been cut and they are adding many new characters, replacing ones from the book.

 

[NetherDemon]

You see - that stuff I could care less about. Changing lines, altering characters, etc... it's all minor changes and do not hurt the main storyline at all. Hell - he could have made Frodo a CHICK for all I cared.

But leaving the Saruman storyline in limbo is totally unacceptable. The whole time people who haven't read the book are watching RotK, they are going to start wondering "What ever happened to Saruman? Maybe he will pop up at the end and fight Gandalf?" Only to be leaving the theater thinking a 4th movie is in the works or something like that. "LOTR 4: Saruman's Revenge"

Did PJ and gang honestly think that the audiences would simply drop Saruman cold turkey?

I simply can't accept that.

And no Christopher Lee at the Premier? WTF? Did that cut from the movie draw a rift between PJ and Lee? That would suck! Oh how depressing! I guess there was no need for Lee to show up since he is not in the last movie at all.

I'm starting to wish I never peeked at those Spoiler Threads. My heart is aching pretty bad right now.

 

[NetherDemon]

I want to break this passage down, but before I do I want to clarfiy that this is from a forum post - there is no link to where this came from. But I am ASSUMING, for the sake of this argument, that it is indeed authentic:

We have decided to save the Saruman sequence for the DVD. It's a great little scene. 7 mins long. Chris is wonderful, as usual. Brad is in about 6 shots. It was a film maker decision - nothing to do with the studio.

The problem is that the sequence was originally shot for The Two Towers, as it is in the book. Since The Two Towers couldn't sustain a 7 min "wrap" after Helm's Deep, we thought it would be a good idea to save it for the beginning of the Return of the King. The trouble is, when we viewed various ROTK cuts over the last few weeks, it feels like the first scenes are wrapping last year's movie, instead of starting the new one. We felt it got ROTK off to an uncertain beginning, since Saruman plays no role in the events of ROTK (we don't have the Scouring later, as the book does), yet we dwell in Isengard for quite a long time before our new story kicks off.

We reluctantly made the decision to save this sequence for the DVD. The choice was made on the basis that most people will assume that Saruman was vanquished by the Helm's Deep events, and Ent attack. We can now crack straight into setting up the narrative tension of ROTK, which features Sauron as the villian.

It was a very similar situation to last year when we decided to take a nice Boromir/Denethor flashback out of The Two Towers, and put it in the DVD. It was causing us pacing problems in the theatrical version, but with the Extended Cut just coming out now, fans can see this great little scene. Thank God for DVD, since it does mean that a version of the movie, which has different pacing requirements, can be released later. The Saruman sequence will definately be a highlight of the Extended ROTK DVD.

We have a lot of great DVD material this time around. As we crafted the movie, we reduced it from an over 4 hour running time, down to 3.12 (without credits - about 8 mins long). This was done by us. There were no studio cutting notes. We now have a movie with a pace that fells ok for it's theatrical release. One more week to go. We are nearly there. Will we still be standing? It's going to be a close run thing.

Cheers,

Peter J

We have decided to save the Saruman sequence for the DVD. It's a great little scene. 7 mins long. Chris is wonderful, as usual. Brad is in about 6 shots. It was a film maker decision - nothing to do with the studio.

Umm - if it's great, why did you not keep it in the movie? You just admitted it was a wonderful scene!


The problem is that the sequence was originally shot for The Two Towers, as it is in the book. Since The Two Towers couldn't sustain a 7 min "wrap" after Helm's Deep, we thought it would be a good idea to save it for the beginning of the Return of the King. The trouble is, when we viewed various ROTK cuts over the last few weeks, it feels like the first scenes are wrapping last year's movie, instead of starting the new one.

Um - WHAT?!?! You didn't properly end last year's movie, so you figured "Why start now?" Why not put it in the TTT:EE, right before the last scene with Gollum Leading the Hobbit's to Cirith Ungol? Or right after Gandalf talks about Sauron's Retribution? It would fit perfectly! No Saruman is not a major figure in your version of RotK, but he was THE MAIN VILLIAN IN BOTH PREVIOUS MOVIES YOU DOLT!


We felt it got ROTK off to an uncertain beginning, since Saruman plays no role in the events of ROTK (we don't have the Scouring later, as the book does), yet we dwell in Isengard for quite a long time before our new story kicks off.

Um- Well since that's where the last movie leaves off, why not start off in Isenguard? And since the books are not filmed congruently in the first place, who's to say where the movies should begin and end?


We reluctantly made the decision to save this sequence for the DVD. The choice was made on the basis that most people will assume that Saruman was vanquished by the Helm's Deep events, and Ent attack

Ok - this is just a total insult to all intelligent moviegoers. Did George Lucas let everyone assume Han Solo was rescued from Jabba's Palace after The Empire Strikes Back? NOOOOO. First thing he did in Return of the Jedi was resuce Han Solo! DUH!
And if you made the decision without any pressure, then why are you saying it was done reluctantly? Reluctance means against your wishes - I just looked it up in the Oxford Dictionary - the same Oxford Tolkien taught at!

Thank God for DVD, since it does mean that a version of the movie, which has different pacing requirements, can be released later. The Saruman sequence will definately be a highlight of the Extended ROTK DVD.

This sounds like a E! public relations flunkie trying to sell Anna Nicole show DVDs.


This was done by us. There were no studio cutting notes.

Well, atleast he admit's it was HIS call and no pressure was put on him to this stuff. Although the changes were done reluctantly?!?!?

I need to snort some crack cocaine now.

 

[Gandalf White]

Originally posted by NetherDemon
Ok - this is just a total insult to all intelligent moviegoers. Did George Lucas let everyone assume Han Solo was rescued from Jabba's Palace after The Empire Strikes Back? NOOOOO. First thing he did in Return of the Jedi was resuce Han Solo! DUH!

LOL! There's a difference there.

Although I do not agree with this move, I don't think it will be overly damaging to the movie.

 

[Ol'gaffer]

A wrap of 7 minutes after the climax of the movie is far to long.
It's the same reason that they cut out the Scouring of the Shire, too much of an anti-climax.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ol'gaffer
A wrap of 7 minutes after the climax of the movie is far to long.
It's the same reason that they cut out the Scouring of the Shire, too much of an anti-climax.

They could easily just have put it in between the Ents flooding Isengard and Frodo Sam and Gollum on their way to Cirith Ungol and still wrapped it up with the ending they did.

The only reason why '7 extra minutes' would be too long is because of the clap-trap added in that didn't need to be there. PJ's endless fabrications (such as warg riders, falling off a cliff, horse kissing, way too much of Theodred, painfully too much of Arwen/Aragorn/Elrond shots, psychic Galadriel telling the whole outcome of the movie, and endless Helm's Deep shots) took time out of the movie for more important things like,,hmm let's see...perhaps wrapping up what happened to the one bad guy beefed up by PJ throughout FoTR and TTT? Priorities, priorities.

The fact that the SoS wasn't going to be in RoTK before the first movie came out AND the gross amounts of screen time and character distortion throughout the two movies to make him the 'tangible bad-guy' means that PJ NEEDED to show how Saruman was to die. Adding it on to the RoTK EE is too little to late for most movie fans. Cutting it out of the movie version means that PJ is forgetting his own story. So not only can he not get Tolkien's story right, he's not helping himself (or the movie's fans) get out of the hole he's dug. Worse than not being able, he seems to be CHOOSING not to do these things.

 

[Odo Proudfoot]

It might be a good idea to wait for the film before being so sure that the viewers need to see how Saruman dies.

We know that his armies are defeated, his fortress is ruined, he is locked up in his tower under the guard of the Ents, and he lost his palantir (I believe this is what we will learn in RotK). He is out of the game.

Don't forget that he was in that same situation in the book throughout most of the events that happened in Gondor and Mordor. He was only released by Treebeard after the war was over.

Without the scouring there is no great need to include his death. I will be happy to see it in the EE but for the continuation of the story at this point it may turn out to be pretty irrelevant.

Odo

 

[MrFrodo]

A fool believes a rumour....

 

[Gandalf White]

...and a wise man bases his conclusions on facts.

 

[simbelmyne]

A wise filmmaker makes a quality movie that doesn't need "damage control" from an extended edition to make sense

 

[Ol'gaffer]

So basically you're saying that there are no wise filmmakers at all since even Kubrik, who many concidered genius, had to make two different endings to the shining and eventually had to add scenes to make the movie more understandable.

And how about the hundreds of other directors who release their directors cuts to make the movies more of a complete story? Does that mean that movies such as Alien, are bad and not quality work?

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

One wonders why ROTK did not begin as did TTT - with a "flashback" to the previous film. In TTT, it is Gandalf's fall in Moria (which took quite a few minutes if I recall). Why didn't Jackson do something similar in ROTK with Saruman? It would have "wrapped up" the plot thread and left the audience to deal with Sauron as the lone "villain of the piece". I can pretty much guarantee that he could have shaved a few minutes off all that c.g. battle stuff (from what I have read) or some of his "inventions" in the third film in order to bring that plot thread to a suitable conclusion. But because he couldn't discipline himself in the second film, he has had to "abandon" (except for that good old EE which makes up for all his failures - not!) one of his main plot lines and characters in the first two films. Ah, yes! Such professional expertise.......