Are Ringwraiths immortal?

Excelent observation, but what about when they aren't in physical form? Could a weapon harm them then? I think it strange that they could be destroyed if their physical bodies are "killed". And, the Nazgul are far more fearsome when not in physical form, so why would they even bother with the risk of getting destroyed, and not being as fear implanting?

Yes I find that interesting too.

And, the Nazgul are far more fearsome when not in physical form, so why would they even bother with the risk of getting destroyed, and not being as fear implanting?

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Yes they are more fearsome when unclad, but can they actually tamper with the physical world when invisible? I think they need to become visible in order to be able to interact with the material world.

Well what all did they accomplish in physical form besides stab Frodo? In the siege of Minas Tirith all they did was fly up high and scare the Gondorians so badly that some went crazy. They were much more hands off as enemies. Surely they could have been more effective during the siege if they were more fearsome, and far less visible.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Yes I find that interesting too.



Yes they are more fearsome when unclad, but can they actually tamper with the physical world when invisible? I think they need to become visible in order to be able to interact with the material world.

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What do you mean to become visible? Did I lose something? I though that they could only get a shape by wearing something. Or do you mean that visible means to move more in the world of Seen, thus getting other abilities (like you said tamper with objects), but never actually become visible to others?

I though that they could only get a shape by wearing something

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That's what I think too. My personal view is that their the robes they wear act as a skin to their inner, cursed flesh. These robes give their shapeless bodies some definate shape and a humanly touch.

being slain by a special weapon that negates the spell that binds their invisible flesh together.

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Seems like that back at the time of the Northern people, a lot of people knew about Necromencry and such arts. But that's another discussion.

I wouldn't say that they have bodies. They are Wraiths, lets not forget that. They can be given bodies, and their bodies can be clothed, but they themselves, un-bodied are themselves in their natural form. And they are more frightening in that form may I add...

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
I wouldn't say that they have bodies. They are Wraiths, lets not forget that. They can be given bodies, and their bodies can be clothed, but they themselves, un-bodied are themselves in their natural form. And they are more frightening in that form may I add...

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I disagree. They had bodies. It was just that their bodies were invisible (which was the effect of their moving in the Unseen).
Note that for someone to be able to hold something (like for example the horse), he must also be able to have body. Something bodiless (like a wraith of our conception), cannot have any interaction with things. I'd like to repeat that we shouldn't confuse the modern definitions of some words (immortality, wraith) with the way Tolkien used them

Hmm... That makes sense. I see what you're saying now. But I don't understand how if it is just invisible it can't hold things in it's hand, or interact with the world.

First, as to the bodies of the Ringwraiths - invisible or not; shape or no shape...etc.

Well, if they became visible under some clothing they must have had bodies! Otherwise the clothes would have nothing to be put on, don't you think? So bodies they must have had all right.

Were these bodies invisible however? ... Hard to say for as you have provided quotes and as it is well known from the places where the wraiths were described in the books, it always happens that whenever a wraith is "killed" the swords never truly pierce a real flesh, or their manles are found empty of any bodyly form whatsoever ... the swords are destroyed when they pierce the mantles of the wraiths; every normal human thing or/and part of body when touches a wraith gets sick... Starnge facts that leave such a mystery about the real shape of the wraiths....
If however I try to trace the logic (not quite a wise move in the realms of fantasy ) - they were once Men, so human bodies they must have had. Invisible these bodies must have been only to the other people (Men) when the wraiths walked in the world of the dead spirits (remember? they dwelled in both worlds!).
I suspect that the wraiths dwelled much more time in that other - spiritual and immaterial world than in the material one. And when they were in the world of spirits and yet around in some place of the material world - their presence must have been scary !!! (The same is the case with the oathbreakers.) THIS was their true power! And I guess they must have been quite well aware of the effect they had on their race-fellows and that must have made them so self-assured - for power they had seeked for and power they had got over the race of mortals!

Now, there is sth. interesting I found while reading the Lost Road - "The Fall of Numenor", that concerns the souls of the ringwraiths IMO:

And the mortal warriors that had set foot in the land of the Gods were burried under the fallen hills, where legend saith that they lie imprisoned in the Forgotten Caves until the day of Doom and the Last Battle.

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"the Forgotten Caves" = later changed into "the Caves of the Forgotten".
So.... .... I know this legend did not survive in the Published Silmarillion, but still I find it as quite an interesting thought! And it gives me a reason to believe that Tolkien really tried hard to find a "suitable " place for the souls of the dead mortal men within the world he himself had created. I remember clearly reading somewhere else in the HoMe volumes about these "Caves" and I remember how Tolkien there placed thouse wretched souls and how some were summoned by some Maiar or/and Valar to dwell in their respective halls while awaiting for the final judgment and departure...Where to? No one actually knew and the Gods in fact seemed to not care! (I am sorry but I just can't find that quote right now ).

Anyway, the point is that perhaps Tolkien had created those "Caves of the Forgotten" to "send" there the souls of those Men who had sinned against the rules set by their creator.
Which, after all, can prove that no matter what powers the Ringwraiths had had, eventually their souls when reliesed by Sauron's magic or powers, had the same fate as all other mortal men. I wonder only.....perhaps their souls were never permitted to leave Arda as such permission was given to other mortals who had not sinned against Eru....

Another interesting passage from the same book:

...And they knew that the fate of Men was not bounded by the round path of the world,nor destined for the straight path. For the round is crooked and has no end but no escape; and the straight is true, but has an end within the world, and that is the fate of the Elves. But the fate ofMen, they said, is neither round nor ended, and is not within the world. ...

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Amazingly well explained! Isn't it?! Whithin the overall concept of Arda and its inhabitants!!!
So, I brought this passage to once again prove that Tolkien seems to had firmly made up his mind about the fate of Men and their souls right from the start of creating his mythology.
"Men are mortal, but their souls are not bounded within the world of Arda, and after their bodies perish, their souls are summoned to the Halls of Eru - their creator" - this is how I personally understand this part of Tolkien's philosophy. And if I'm right, then this must be the fate of the Ringwraiths as well...

Meaning ....
Ha!!!
Have I just reached a conclusion that the race considered "mortal" is more "IMmortal" than Gods even?!?!

Lhun, we are moving off the main topic, but the issue you raised is always very interesting.
The discussion of Finrod and Andreth is very educative in this topic, as you know. I could quote some parts but it would be better to read all of it But in summary, Finrod says that since their fate is unknown after the end of Time, Men should consider themselves luckier that the Elves, knowing that Eru has a plan for them.
Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda. Eru could not have created such a wonderful race, only to use it as “teachers” for the Followers, the race of Men. That there is no lore of this fate, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Maybe Eru deliberately concealed it from the Elves, to make them more attached to Arda, not knowing that there is an “afterlife” for them.
As, for the Ainur, I don’t believe that their existence ends with the end of Time, since 1. they existed before Arda, thus they cannot end when Arda ends and 2. they would rebuild Arda with the help of Men.
Concluding, Men aren’t more immortal than Elves and the Gods

Lhun, we are moving off the main topic, but the issue you raised is always very interesting.

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No, I don’t think we have gone too far from it ! Why?! To understand the concept of Tolkien about the race of men and the final fate and purpose would explain, IMHO, the fate of the souls of the ringwraiths and we could come to some conclusion – mortal or immortals they are.
But then again, I understand that the concept of immortality is to be understaood only within Arda it self. The All-mighty obviously does not allow anybody to peep in his halls without his permission and all we can do is to stand in frant of the “gate” and wander and ponder over what is in there where the souls of Men go!

The discussion of Finrod and Andreth is very educative in this topic, as you know. I could quote some parts but it would be better to read all of it But in summary, Finrod says that since their fate is unknown after the end of Time, Men should consider themselves luckier that the Elves, knowing that Eru has a plan for them.

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Oh, I don’t think that YOU think that I haven’t read this piece by Tolkien?!? But anyway, thanks for the summary!

Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda. Eru could not have created such a wonderful race, only to use it as “teachers” for the Followers, the race of Men.

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Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!?

That there is no lore of this fate, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Maybe Eru deliberately concealed it from the Elves, to make them more attached to Arda, not knowing that there is an “afterlife” for them.

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Now THAT is away from the present topic, but so very interesting in itself

As, for the Ainur, I don’t believe that their existence ends with the end of Time, since 1. they existed before Arda, thus they cannot end when Arda ends and 2. they would rebuild Arda with the help of Men.
Concluding, Men aren’t more immortal than Elves and the Gods

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But they were also created for the purpose of creating Arda itself! What if Eru had planned for them to perish after he takes it up all in his authority again? When their task will be completed – will he need them any more? What for? After all, they did not cope too well with the task.
Now...THIS is completely OUT of the topic!

What if Eru had planned for them to perish after he takes it up all in his authority again?

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Big what if!

Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda.

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That produces the question, "After the End??"
That also leads upto the Question, What was the purpose behind creating the Children?

Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!?

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Elves are a bit different, they are proclaimed as the Children of Eru and surely Eru wouldn't want the children becoming Distinct??
Besides, Elves are a major participants in the running of Arda, imagine them as the King on chess board. The chess master would bear the sacrifice of his pawns, for it would be necessary to gain bigger objectives in the end, but not the Queen, without whom the whole game is useless.

A far-fetched idea, but still an idea.

When their task will be completed – will he need them any more? What for?

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The same Question can be asked, did he needed to produce Elves and Men and Maia? What for?

originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!?

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Hey, wait a minute, that’s heretic (or should I say unconventional ).
What wonders did Eru create and later let them be destroyed? Any examples? Because if you have in mind things like the Silmarils, the Two Trees, Númenor etc, then I have to disagree.
1. He did not create them, his children (Ainur + Elves + Men) did.
2. He did not let them be destroyed (like neglecting them). The behaviour of his children caused the destruction, which might be altered if they had acted differently
On the other hand a possible elimination of a whole race (like the Elves) after the end of Time, would not fall in the same category. It would be a predetermined plan, a cruel act of llúvatar, which would not be changed by the actions of the related people (Elves). It would not be a way of “punishment” towards them, since whatever their behaviour through the course of history, the result would still be the same: since they had served their purpose, they were unneeded.
If you think so low of Eru, you can accept this. From my part, I hope in a better fate for the Elves.

What for? After all, they did not cope too well with the task.

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I think we must have a debate on this matter sometime . You always accuse the Ainur of failing in their tasks.

And I know you have read “Athrabeth”. You are quoting from it all the time.


PS.
Maybe we should start a new thread on the matter and leave this one for the Ringwraiths

Debate against you, agapi mu?
Well, that will be something!
But ... we'll see.... we'll live and see...

Meanwhile, what happened to the wraiths?

mortal or immortal ?

I say... when we finally reach an agreement on this question, would someone like to write an essay on the subject?
I promise I'll make him/her immortal by placing the essay on the Tolkien Wiki - knowledgebase!
Think about it!
Volunteers?

Now...back to the topic.

I'd say the wraiths were mortal!
What finally convinced me was gate7ole's post after my question about what would happen to the Lord of the Nazgûl if th eRing was not destroyed.
Which is why I have not replied anymore after that. I thought his post was brilliant, and nothing after that have managed to convince that it was flawed in some way.

I think we must have a debate on this matter sometime . You always accuse the Ainur of failing in their tasks.

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Very interesting. I would be happy to join if that would be possible?

Originally posted by Arvedui
Very interesting. I would be happy to join if that would be possible?

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Why not? Just which side do you prefer, mine or Lhun's?

immortality

If we are to rely on Tolkien's own words, the Ringwraiths were neither living nor dead, neither material nor immaterial and neither in this world nor in that of the Unseen. They were all the time somewhere "in between", dwelling in a semi-material body which could be seen only by spirits like themselves or like the Ainur(Sauron could see their true appearance, seemingly, even when He did not wear the Ring, unlike Frodo) and interacting with the natural world in a strange manner.

According to the description made by Gandalf to Frodo, the Nazgûl did not perceive the world as earthly creatures do:

1. Their eyesight was very poor in daylight, but rather satisfactory at night, somehow like an owl's, but they did not see "images" of things as we do; rather each thing watched created an "image" of itself directly into the mind of the Ringwraith:

They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared

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- LOTR I,11 A Knife in the Dark

2. They could feel things even if they could not see them:

Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly

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- LOTR I,11 A Knife in the Dark

3. Another quote, more explicit, about their perception:

If the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see. You have no power however like a Ring of making other things invisible: you are a ringwraith. You can wear clothes.....But you are under the command of the Lord of the Rings

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- The Return of the Shadow - Of Gollum and the Ring

4. Yet another:

became not only invisible to all in this world, if they wished, but could see both the world under the sun and the other side in which invisible things move

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The picture we get from here is that of demon-like beings. Like demons, the Nazgûl are able to capture themselves the "soul"/will of a living being:

They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-kife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord

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- 1 LOTR II,1 Many Meetings.

OK, that's enough.

The perception of a Ringwraith was not directly on topic, but it could cast some light on the true nature of those beings, and also shatter some idiotic myths like "they could not see"(then, how did they fight, for Sauron's sake!?).

These half-material, half-spiritual beings were therefore a sort of demons. But a special kind, since they had once been Men. They had not been separated entirely from their bodies, because in this form they could not handle objects, so they would have been unable to fight for Sauron, which had originally been the purpose of creating them. But they could be "dematerialized" like they disappeared from their cloaks when stabbed. This is an Ainur-like ability, gained via their Rings.

Could the Rings make these "volatile" bodies immortal? Apparently they did not act on the bodies themselves. Gollum haf wielded the One Ring, stronger than the Nine, for 500 years, and yet he did not become a wraith. But his body got deformed, as the Ring had amplified the will of survival; and this will of survival had kept his body together, slowing his biological decay and prolonging his life. His mind controlled his body. Since he was not adapted for underground life, yet he could not dare to live under the Sun, his will, focused through the Ring, had modified his body in order to allow better chances of survival.

Since the Nazgûl lived in different conditions, their Rings had modified them in different ways. Their bodies had become invulnerable to common weapons, and to aging, until some enchanted weapon couldhave broken the original spell. Their senses also evolved. Their spirits/fear were also trapped by the Rings' power. They had "lost their will" in the sense that they still had personal initiative(they were not witless robots) but they were entirely devoted to Sauron and able only to do things in his benefit.

What happens when a trapped spirit is released, by death? Spirits of all beings are immortal, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Ainur and so on. Elves go to Halls of Mandos and expect a new life; Dwarves go also to the Halls of Mandos and remain there until the end of time, since Eru did not have a plan for them originally. Men pass through the halls to a place only known by Eru. And Orcs and spirits under the Shadow, what do they do? If Orcs were genetically-engineered Elves, as Tolkien had left to understand, do they also go to the Halls of Mandos, and bring Sauron's evilness inside the Blessed Realm itself? What do corrupted Ainur do? Did Saruman get back to Valinor?

No.

Saruman's spirit, which headed west, was pushed back by a wind and thrown somewhere in a remote place of the world. The same thng happened to the "diminished" Sauron, after the One Ring got destroyed.

Apparently, corrupted spirits, like evil Ainur, or Nazgûl, or even Orcs, in the hypothesis of their death(breaking of the material body) are not allowed to return, unless they regret their deeds, and answer to the summons of the Valar, like Sauron was asked by Eonwe to do after the War of Wrath. As he refused, he was not brought in by force - simply left to wander in Arda.

This seems to be the fate of the Ringwraiths themselves: unable to live further, unable to return to Valinor, unable to gain new bodies, are left to wander the Arda until the end of time, like some ghosts, devoid of all power and keeping just thier grief. A horrible fate, the fate of a tormented spirit with no place to rest, forever wanderer, the fate which Elves themselves feared more than anything(see Elrond's speech to Arwen in the FOTR film). Could a greater punishment for their deeds ever be?

~Best regards,

Nautilus

WOW!!!
THAT was a convincing post!!!!

Nautilus, first of all, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!!

Excellent observations! Just EXCELLENT !

Two things that your post made me think of:

1/ How in fact, do you all think, did Gandalf know so well of how a ringwraith feels and perceives the surrounding worlds he lived in?
From the quotes Nautilus provided it becomes obvious that he knew very well that. HOW?
I can only speculate by saying that Gandalf- being a Maia himself, must have had the same abilities and the state of the ringwraiths - them having been given some Maia features, was well known to him! Otherwise how could he describe it all so in details?

2/ I also was very much intrigued by the thought that evil spirits coming to the Blessed Realm (even if it was to the Halls of Mandos only ) could "infect" the realm itself and perhaps that's why too much evil spirits like Saruman's for example was "chased away" from there and never let enter!
Now... really an interesting thought!!! That might be also the fate of the souls of the Nazgul, too. It just may be that their souls when released by the power of the Ring were not admitted to the Halls of Mandos (those for Men, of course) neither they could proceed their "journey" further on to wherever Eru gathered them.

Hmmmm.... 'should think about it....

Welcome to the Forum, Nautilus!
What a marvellous post!

I must say that you have left me absolutely flabbergasted by that one! Very intriguing indeed.

It rasies an interesting question:
Could it possibly be that some souls are left to wander aimlessly around Arda, without ever finding peace?
IMO, this counters everything I have read of the Professors work, and therefore makes it hard to accept. But on the other hand, Tolkien never said much about the fate of the servants of Morgoth and Sauron, did he?

But how can someone be borth mortal and immortal, as your post seems to indicate?

Why not? Just which side do you prefer, mine or Lhun's?

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I don't know which side you take, but I think the Ainur failed rather miserably, or at least until Fëanor rebelled.

In another thread I messed up their topic with sth. that should have been here.
So I have decided to not "torture" any Mod and using the easy c&p - method to transfer it to this thread because IMO it has to do much more with this topic.

So here is a summary:

Lhun: And all this, interesting in itself, brings to my mind a question...

What could it be that held the Nazgul in subordination to Sauron?

My flow of thoughts:

>> they were "Proud Kings of Men" who wnated non-Men powers
>> Sauron gives them the rings and they get those powers
>> they become powerful and no creature in ME can stand the horror of the wraiths
>> The ONLY one they obey to is Sauron!

What did he hold them loyal to him with?

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Arvedui: For some reason, I am thinking of a device called the Ruling Ring.
quote:
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One Ring to rule them all...
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Lhun: Oooo, common! LOL

All right ... I'll alter the question:

What did the Ruling Ring hold the ringwraiths with?

Or...What would have they lost if they hadn't felt its power over them?

Now?

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Arvedui: Darn, I liked the first question better. It was a lot easier to answer.

The only thing I can think of, is that Sauron poured a lot of his will into that piece of jewelry. And that it was his will that worked through the Ring, holding the Ringwraiths loyal.

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Lhun:Now.... this is what Sauron would loose NOT the wraiths!

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Yay: What did the Ruling Ring hold the ringwraiths with?

Hm? Hold them with? Surgical gloves? No. Evil and unfair magic, I would think.

What would have they lost if they hadn't felt its power over them?

Well, I would think that they would always feel it's creepy power since they were taken over by it. If they didn't feel it anymore, it must have been destroyed. Yay Gollum!

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Well, this is it.

What do you say?

What would the wraiths lose if they did not experience the power of the rings - resp. of Sauron, upon them? What did they fear so much as to stay subbordinate to the will of Sauron?

I'm thinking about it and all I can think of is that they must have understood that without the Ring and through it - the intervention of Sauron, they will die in the very literal sense of the word.
I am quite sure they did NOT like such an alternative!!! After all most of them were exiled Numenoreans with the ever-lasting wish of the people from this nation to reach immortality.

Opinions?