Are 🕷️Ungoliant and Bombadil opposites of each other?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

I'm still not sure what Bombadil is, but I now think it's possible that I've found his opposite, Ungoliant, a spider-like creature that appears to have come from the darkness and the Void itself.

Bombadil, on the other hand, is possibly an essence of the Secret Fire itself or something similar.


They also seem to have supernatural powers over even some of the strongest beings and things. Bombadil could overcome the power of the Ring and even some of its effects (Frodo gave it to him willingly, which is against the normal nature of the Ring.)


Ungoliant was able to even tackle Melkor, for a while anyway.


Neither Bombadil nor Ungoliant are ever suggested to be Mair and it's clear neither is a Valar.


Also, it's possible that both are alive during the War of the Ring (Ungoliant was said to have died by her own hand, but I'm not sure if it ever stated that that was during the First Age. It could be during the Fourth Age when it happened for all we know.)

 

[Nameless Thing]

http://whoistombombadil.blogspot.co.il/?m=1

Read everything here. The best I've ever read about Bombadil and answers yours question too.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Thank you for the link, NT! Some interesting ideas there.

As for Ungoliant, in mythical terms, she represents total nihilism, pure destruction, the diametric polar opposite to the creative impulse,the devourer, similar to Kali (in her killing aspect). This nihilistic impulse goes beyond, in fact leaves behind, any "petty" concerns, such as power, or even self-interest, for if she were to continue her single-minded quest for destruction, there would eventually be nothing left to feed upon.

As such, her opposite would have to be a character representing the creative force. The ultimate such force would of course be Eru, but as he is in a sense, "outside" the story, we need to look elsewhere, in the plane of action, that is, Arda.

TB is Master, "tender", of his domain, but not himself a creator. In the mythical world of the Silmarillion, the creative characters are the Valar, and specific to the oppositional polarization, Varda, Gilthoniel "Star-Kindler", goddess of light, and Yavanna, goddess of living things, the flora and fauna of Arda. It's significant that Ungoliant kills Yavanna's Two Trees by draining their life-giving sap, and also drains Varda's Wells of Light.

Structurally, she can appear in any mode, from the Evil Stepmother in fairy tales, who seeks the destruction of her stepchild, or the Wicked Witch in say, Hansel and Gretel (who pointedly wants to eat the children), down to the harridan of the disfunctional families in modern fiction.

When we move from the mythic mode of the Silmarillion to the romance mode of LOTR, we find the same structure, and the same characters. Shelob, of course, is obvious, and as a descendant of Ungoliant, carries on the same impulse of unchecked nihilism, devouring not light, but life:

". . .drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow, for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness."

Tolkien weakens the metaphorical imagery at the end, for what I'm sure he considered good reasons; I doubt anyone thinks of "vomit" as the end-product of metabolism, but the intent is clear enough.

For her opposing figure, I would suggest Galadriel, whose romance-mode attributes reflect both Varda, in her associations with stars and water (beautifully fused in the Mirror episode), and Yavanna, in her association with trees, and her "life-preserving" (though, as an Exile, not life-creating) aspects.

There are other contrasted parallels that could be noted, such as the way in which the Company's journey through Lorien, into the city, and up into the presence of King and Queen has a suggestion of the spiraling ascent by degrees in apocalyptic imagery; here is the opposite pole from the demonic imagery of the dark labyrinth, the maze without an exit, of Shelob's lair.

Another would be her provision of Lembas and Miruvor, the ME counterparts of the Host and wine of Communion; in apocalyptic terms, the symblolic absorption by the followers of the "body" of the leader. The demonic parody of this act is cannibalism, and significantly, Shelob slays (and presumably eats) her own offspring, the incestuous implications of which is also a part of demonic imagery.

It's interesting to note how the "lesser men", the "Men of Twilight" are liable to confuse the two: "Few escape her nets, they say" says the Rider (before we learn who he is), which raises the ire of Gimli, who has "seen the Light".

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Thank you for the link, NT! Some interesting ideas there.

As for Ungoliant, in mythical terms, she represents total nihilism, pure destruction, the diametric polar opposite to the creative impulse,the devourer, similar to Kali (in her killing aspect). This nihilistic impulse goes beyond, in fact leaves behind, any "petty" concerns, such as power, or even self-interest, for if she were to continue her single-minded quest for destruction, there would eventually be nothing left to feed upon.

As such, her opposite would have to be a character representing the creative force. The ultimate such force would of course be Eru, but as he is in a sense, "outside" the story, we need to look elsewhere, in the plane of action, that is, Arda.

TB is Master, "tender", of his domain, but not himself a creator. In the mythical world of the Silmarillion, the creative characters are the Valar, and specific to the oppositional polarization, Varda, Gilthoniel "Star-Kindler", goddess of light, and Yavanna, goddess of living things, the flora and fauna of Arda. It's significant that Ungoliant kills Yavanna's Two Trees by draining their life-giving sap, and also drains Varda's Wells of Light.

Structurally, she can appear in any mode, from the Evil Stepmother in fairy tales, who seeks the destruction of her stepchild, or the Wicked Witch in say, Hansel and Gretel (who pointedly wants to eat the children), down to the harridan of the disfunctional families in modern fiction.

When we move from the mythic mode of the Silmarillion to the romance mode of LOTR, we find the same structure, and the same characters. Shelob, of course, is obvious, and as a descendant of Ungoliant, carries on the same impulse of unchecked nihilism, devouring not light, but life:

". . .drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow, for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness."

Tolkien weakens the metaphorical imagery at the end, for what I'm sure he considered good reasons; I doubt anyone thinks of "vomit" as the end-product of metabolism, but the intent is clear enough.

For her opposing figure, I would suggest Galadriel, whose romance-mode attributes reflect both Varda, in her associations with stars and water (beautifully fused in the Mirror episode), and Yavanna, in her association with trees, and her "life-preserving" (though, as an Exile, not life-creating) aspects.

There are other contrasted parallels that could be noted, such as the way in which the Company's journey through Lorien, into the city, and up into the presence of King and Queen has a suggestion of the spiraling ascent by degrees in apocalyptic imagery; here is the opposite pole from the demonic imagery of the dark labyrinth, the maze without an exit, of Shelob's lair.

Another would be her provision of Lembas and Miruvor, the ME counterparts of the Host and wine of Communion; in apocalyptic terms, the symblolic absorption by the followers of the "body" of the leader. The demonic parody of this act is cannibalism, and significantly, Shelob slays (and presumably eats) her own offspring, the incestuous implications of which is also a part of demonic imagery.

It's interesting to note how the "lesser men", the "Men of Twilight" are liable to confuse the two: "Few escape her nets, they say" says the Rider (before we learn who he is), which raises the ire of Gimli, who has "seen the Light".

It never says that she ate her own offspring. It says that she ate her own mates. It says that the giant spiders of Mirkwood were her offspring.

I think the words were "bastards of her miserable mates, which she ate". I think the eating refers to her mates and not the offspring.

Also, if I may ask, what could have killed Ungoliant, other than herself? If none of the Valar were able to get at her and even Melkor was unable to kill her, what exactly, besides her own malice, could kill her?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The quote you're referring to is "Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, which she slew. . ."

So it doesn't actually say anything about eating. But as she is "an evil thing, in spider-form", and many spiders eat both mates and offspring, and most importantly, "all living things were her food", I think the implication is clear.

As for Ungoliant, all I can offer is this from the published Silmarillion:

"Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells.Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last".

IIRC there were a couple of alternate possibilities in various iterations; you can look through HOME, but I don't think you'll find anything radically different.

Now, if you're asking a kind of "Superman vs The Hulk" question, I have no idea.

 

[Alcuin]

To follow onto SES’s earlier post, Frodo used the light given him by Galadriel, light from the Silmaril of Eärendil, to drive back Shelob, whose forebear, Ungoliant, consumed and destroyed light. “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”

“Few escape her nets,” said Éomer of Galadriel in his misunderstanding and distrust. Few indeed escaped the nets of Shelob.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

How exactly did Galadriel get light from a Simril? However she got it, it apparently wasn't strong enough to give light in the chamber of Mount Doom itself.

 

[Alcuin]

How exactly did Galadriel get light from a [Silmaril]?

“In this phial,” [Galadriel] said, “is caught the light of Eärendil’s star, set amid the waters of my fountain. …”

Whether it’s Elvish art, Elvish technology, or Elvish “magic,” with apologies to Casca, it’s Elvish to me.

However she got it, it apparently wasn't strong enough to give light in the chamber of Mount Doom itself.

You are quite right.

In his great need [Sam] drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.