Morgoth
Bauglir
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Messages
- 185
As part of his ambassadorial role he wanted sympathy and support, and needed to let the others know that.Foe-Hammer said:Then why admit his rule was failing? Why not just keep up the facade?
Eledhwen said:I wouldn't hold out too much hope of an EE with a palantir in Minas Tirith, as Denethor didn't have it with him at the end.
joxy said:As part of his ambassadorial role he wanted sympathy and support, and needed to let the others know that.
By admitting that D's rule was failing he wouldn't have been admitting that this was from D's fault.
Foe-Hammer said:....that scene again (FoTR...in lothlorien).
Eledhwen said:Denethor always favoured Boromir, but I don't think the book portrayed any particular disappointment in Faramir until he revealed that he had let the Ring go. Also, Faramir was plainly loved by the people.
Denethor's realisation that he loved Faramir, once F was wounded, was well portrayed, right up until Shadowfax kicked him onto the pyre, Denethor caught light, then threw himself off the rockface.
That's an unfathomable question that has been asked here many times!simbelmyne said:How can PJ put such wonderful moments next to such stupid ones?
Appendix A, of the Stewards
'So time drew on to the War of the Ring, and the sons of Denethor grew to manhood. Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.
'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test. But of all that befell these three in the War of the Ring much is said elsewhere. And after the War the days of the Ruling Stewards came to an end; for the heir of Isildur and Anárion returned and the kingship was renewed, and the standard of the White Tree flew once more from the Tower of Ecthelion.'
joxy said:
It was ever thus, that the son who is most like the parent reminds them of all their own perceived shortcomings. It seems to me that the film takes the words 'he displeased his father' and puts the whole Faramir/Denethor relationship into them. Crude.
Eledhwen said:
[autolink said:Foe-Hammer[/autolink]before denathor went nuts, he was very displeased with faramir. Mostly it was centered around his performance in battle, but you could tell there were other things too.
Many sons displease their fathers in many things - there's no need of a dictionary to establish that simple fact of life. That fact does not necessarily establish a relationship between them remotely like that which PJ portrays for Denethor and Faramir. The contrast between the passage quoted above and the films' account adequately justifies the description of "crude" for the latter.Foe-Hammer said:"In this and many other things". Those are jrr's words and you call someone crude because they followed the book?
Telling one son that you wish he had died in his brother's place is not normal fatherly behavior. Denethor wasn't a nice person in the books, and from what I've read his relationship with his younger son is much more like the movies than people seem to think.‘So be it!’ cried Denethor. ‘But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.’
‘Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’
‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’ said Denethor. ‘For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil. He would have remembered his father’s need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.’
...
Then all were silent, but at length Faramir said: ‘I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead - if you command it.’
‘I do so,’ said Denethor.
‘Then farewell!’ said Faramir. ‘But if I should return, think better of me!’
‘That depends on the manner of your return,’ said Denethor.
simbelmyne said:What were these other things? I saw only basic dislike of one son over the other for no real reason. That was my point about Denethor being jealous of Faramir's love, (which according to his own dialogue in ROTK, he was). It showed why he treated Faramir worse than Boromir. It would have been nice if PJ had shown some motivation of why he was mean to Faramir...
There's probably been a misunderstanding here. I've been talking about the Denethor/Faramir/Boromir scenes in TTT. It's those for which I accept Eledhwen's description as "crude".aragil said:joxy- you really should see the movie before you start talking about the 'film account' of the incident.
joxy said:
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Are you happy to accept cookies and these technologies?