Arrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!

[Morgoth]

With regard to Denethor, I find a simple conclusion: I didnt like him in the book, nor did I like him in the film. I found him, personally, to be a deplorable character in each. Please dont post any angry replies, this is just my personal view, and what I drew from the book.

 

[Eledhwen]

Denethor

Anyone who sleeps in his armour is bound to be a bit cranky.

Denethor always favoured Boromir, but I don't think the book portrayed any particular disappointment in Faramir until he revealed that he had let the Ring go. Also, Faramir was plainly loved by the people.

Denethor's realisation that he loved Faramir, once F was wounded, was well portrayed, right up until Shadowfax kicked him onto the pyre, Denethor caught light, then threw himself off the rockface.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope of an EE with a palantir in Minas Tirith, as Denethor didn't have it with him at the end.

Sam, however, did have Sting and the Ring. Listen carefully to what he says to Shelob. He'll have to fight her twice in the EE.

 

[joxy]

Then why admit his rule was failing? Why not just keep up the facade?

As part of his ambassadorial role he wanted sympathy and support, and needed to let the others know that.
By admitting that D's rule was failing he wouldn't have been admitting that this was from D's fault.

 

[Gandalf White]

I wouldn't hold out too much hope of an EE with a palantir in Minas Tirith, as Denethor didn't have it with him at the end.

Some people with very good sources have stated that there will be a Palantir in the EE. I think this is backed by Denethor's statements to Gandalf upon their first meeting.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

As part of his ambassadorial role he wanted sympathy and support, and needed to let the others know that.
By admitting that D's rule was failing he wouldn't have been admitting that this was from D's fault.

A: he is not an ambassadorr then, he is a memeber of the fellowship
B: Whose fault would it be?
C: Why look to Boromir to make it right?

Please do me a favor and go watch that scene again (FoTR...in lothlorien). He makes it perfectly clear that the people have lost faith and you will see that pj does not present denathor as a crackpot or insane. He calls his father "a nobel man". Denathor gets worse after boromirs death and totally insane after faramir is injured.

That insanity spin is just more spewage from the npw types.

 

[joxy]

....that scene again (FoTR...in lothlorien).

I thought you meant in Rivendell.
I'll check out Lorien now.

 

[simbelmyne]

Denethor always favoured Boromir, but I don't think the book portrayed any particular disappointment in Faramir until he revealed that he had let the Ring go. Also, Faramir was plainly loved by the people.

Denethor's realisation that he loved Faramir, once F was wounded, was well portrayed, right up until Shadowfax kicked him onto the pyre, Denethor caught light, then threw himself off the rockface.

I was just reading this part of the book, and for the first time I really paid attention to what Denethor said about Faramir as he's about to burn them...he says that Gandalf stole half Faramir's love from D, sneers several times about F being that "wizard's pupil". NOW I'm not so sure he loved Boromir more at all, but was angry and jealous that Faramir valued Gandalf's opinion over his own. This would have been interesting added in the movie, I think...

I agree the realization in the movie was great UNTIL D gets kicked onto the pyre and then hurls himself down into the city. How can PJ put such wonderful moments next to such stupid ones?

 

[joxy]

How can PJ put such wonderful moments next to such stupid ones?

That's an unfathomable question that has been asked here many times!
Not only CAN he place the banal against the brilliant, but he almosts INSISTS on doing it: the films have many wonderful scenes and moments, but the pattern is almost always to have them followed, or even interrupted, by something in complete contrast.
It's as if he can't trust his own judgement, or that of his audience.

 

[aragil]

Fodder for the conversation

Appendix A, of the Stewards
'So time drew on to the War of the Ring, and the sons of Denethor grew to manhood. Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.
'Yet between the brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father's favour or for the praise of men. It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test. But of all that befell these three in the War of the Ring much is said elsewhere. And after the War the days of the Ruling Stewards came to an end; for the heir of Isildur and Anárion returned and the kingship was renewed, and the standard of the White Tree flew once more from the Tower of Ecthelion.'

 

[Foe-Hammer]

I thought you meant in Rivendell.
I'll check out Lorien now.

Are you going to finish this?

 

[Eledhwen]

From Aragil's post:

He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.

It was ever thus, that the son who is most like the parent reminds them of all their own perceived shortcomings. It seems to me that the film takes the words 'he displeased his father' and puts the whole Faramir/Denethor relationship into them. Crude.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

From Aragil's post: It was ever thus, that the son who is most like the parent reminds them of all their own perceived shortcomings. It seems to me that the film takes the words 'he displeased his father' and puts the whole Faramir/Denethor relationship into them. Crude.

"In this and many other things". Those are jrr's words and you call someone crude because they followed the book? Ya know, words mean things and if you are just going to apply your own definition to them you might as well just remove yourself from logical discussion.

Many:1 : consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number <worked for many years>
2 : being one of a large but indefinite number <many a man> <many another student>

Displease:1 : to incur the disapproval or dislike of especially by annoying <their gossip displeases her>

And before you start going off on denathor trying to kill faramir. It was obvious that before (that word means something too) denathor went nuts, he was very displeased with faramir. Mostly it was centered around his performance in battle, but you could tell there were other things too.

Before: 1 : in advance
2 : at an earlier time : PREVIOUSLY

 

[simbelmyne]

Foe-Hammer[/autolink]before denathor went nuts, he was very displeased with faramir. Mostly it was centered around his performance in battle, but you could tell there were other things too.

What were these other things? I saw only basic dislike of one son over the other for no real reason. That was my point about Denethor being jealous of Faramir's love, (which according to his own dialogue in ROTK, he was). It showed why he treated Faramir worse than Boromir. It would have been nice if PJ had shown some motivation of why he was mean to Faramir...

 

[joxy]

"In this and many other things". Those are jrr's words and you call someone crude because they followed the book?

Many sons displease their fathers in many things - there's no need of a dictionary to establish that simple fact of life. That fact does not necessarily establish a relationship between them remotely like that which PJ portrays for Denethor and Faramir. The contrast between the passage quoted above and the films' account adequately justifies the description of "crude" for the latter.

 

[aragil]

joxy- you really should see the movie before you start talking about the 'film account' of the incident.

Yet again, from the book:

‘So be it!’ cried Denethor. ‘But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.’
‘Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’
‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’ said Denethor. ‘For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil. He would have remembered his father’s need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.’
...
Then all were silent, but at length Faramir said: ‘I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead - if you command it.’
‘I do so,’ said Denethor.
‘Then farewell!’ said Faramir. ‘But if I should return, think better of me!’
‘That depends on the manner of your return,’ said Denethor.

Telling one son that you wish he had died in his brother's place is not normal fatherly behavior. Denethor wasn't a nice person in the books, and from what I've read his relationship with his younger son is much more like the movies than people seem to think.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

What were these other things? I saw only basic dislike of one son over the other for no real reason. That was my point about Denethor being jealous of Faramir's love, (which according to his own dialogue in ROTK, he was). It showed why he treated Faramir worse than Boromir. It would have been nice if PJ had shown some motivation of why he was mean to Faramir...

It would have been nice had there been time for many things, but the movie made it very clear that denathor was displeased with faramir and very pleased with boromir and the reasons why were less important than the fact that he was displeased. It worked very well for those who are unfamiliar with the book and those that actually read the book know that it portrayed the relationship very well even though there was not the time to completely develope faramir.

 

[joxy]

joxy- you really should see the movie before you start talking about the 'film account' of the incident.

There's probably been a misunderstanding here. I've been talking about the Denethor/Faramir/Boromir scenes in TTT. It's those for which I accept Eledhwen's description as "crude".
Is there more to come in ROTK?

 

[Rowan Evensong]

The Family Dynamic

Perhaps I inserted too much present day thinking into it, but I accepted the Denethor/Boromir/Faramir family dynamic as the time honored "oldest son thats good at sports and takes after the old man vs. the younger son thats more the thinker and less assertive" thing.

I enjoyed the writing and portrayal of Boromir and Faramir in the movie, to the degree it was the one area that I thought surpassed Tolkien's writing. His characterizations as a whole are not deep; Bormir and Faramir, to me, read as especially single dimensional characters. Perhaps Jackson overstepped his bounds, or took things in a direction some do not like, but at least he tried to give them SOME personality and motivations.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

There's probably been a misunderstanding here. I've been talking about the Denethor/Faramir/Boromir scenes in TTT. It's those for which I accept Eledhwen's description as "crude".
Is there more to come in ROTK?

Why are you in RoTK thread then? Would you read half of jrr's book and then make a judgement on it? If I read two of the three books and then pronounced it "crude", would you acceopt it? I think you ought to stick to TTT review thread until you have at least SEEN the movie. Don't you? How can you sit there an argue a whole movie when you have only seen 2/3rds of it?

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Joxy,

Are you going to finish the topic from post #65 like you said or have you decided you are unqualified to make an educated opinion because you haven't seen the 3rd movie yet? The scene in question is in FoTR and the point was made that PJ had portrayed denathor as a crack-pot from the get go. I disputed that claim and use the lothlorein scene as evidence.