Athelas in the movie

[Elf_Maven]

I may have missed previous discussions, but has anyone read anything about the filmmakers' choice of plant to represent athelas?

Maybe I haven't seen the movie enough times yet, but as far as I could tell, Aragorn has a little bushy herb that he tries to push into Frodo's wound, instead of boiling the leaves in water and bathing the wound. Tolkien describes Aragorn as crushing one of several 'long leaves of a plant.'

I realize that this is only one of many discrepancies, but I wondered if anyone knows what their rationale was for using a different type of plant?

 

[Talimon]

I'd have no clue .

 

[aragil]

My guess is that after a lot of effort, they realized that athelas doesn't actually exist, and so they made use of a plant which actually does grow in New Zealand.

 

[Elf_Maven]

Now that I have the DVD with all the features, I observe that the early filming of the scene with Arwen and Aragorn treating Frodo's wound shows Aragorn holding a large plant with several long leaves---a closer approximation to what Tolkien describes. Why did they change it? Who knows what the rationale was for using the little shrubby thing instead of the larger, individual leaves?

OK, OK, I know that athelas doesn't really exist, but with some things Peter Jackson was very diligent in trying to create consistency with the book, so why not this one?

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Maven
Now that I have the DVD with all the features, I observe that the early filming of the scene with Arwen and Aragorn treating Frodo's wound shows Aragorn holding a large plant with several long leaves

I haven't seen that- where does it appear?
The change seems to be just another of PJ's fads and fancies.

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

I am not sure that it really made all that much difference. The plant certainly looked like a weed and that is exactly what it was in the book. I do think though that they could have easily made it more acurate visually to the plant described in the book.

~Ariana

 

[Elf_Maven]

joxy, The plant with long leaves shows up in the featurette about Languages and also in the Fox TV special. I noticed it somewhere else too, but it's just a repeat of the same scene with Aragorn crouching down next to Arwen at Frodo's side. In the final version he has the bushy shrub with little leaves and blossoms.

Ariana, you're right, it doesn't make any REAL difference. But since I HAVE read the book, and also noticed that at one point a different plant was being used to represent the nonexistent athelas, now I'm curious about why PJ used the one he did---was there some rationale for choosing it? I'm not a botanist, so I don't recognize it, but maybe they used a plant that really does have healing properties associated with it. "Inquiring minds want to know."

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Maven
joxy, The plant with long leaves shows up in the featurette about Languages and also in the Fox TV special.

Thanks, yes, it's there in both of them, and is quite different from, and I think more appropriate than, the one that appears in the film.
Seeing the Languages feature has brought me back to those passages of invented dialogue that occasionally mar the film. It emphasises how careful they are to get the Elvish languages right, using experts and language coaches; yet they are happy, proud even, to let in bits of really horrible, anti-Tolkienian, English!

 

[Elf_Maven]

heh-heh . . .

We're off the subject now, but I agree with you about the dialogue and languages. But then, it's all part of the same "picture"---in some instances they've bent over backwards to be authentic, and in others they've been too free with their adaptations (IMO).

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Maven
in some instances they've bent over backwards to be authentic, and in others they've been too free with their adaptations (IMO).

Yes, that's the pity of it: they show they CAN be good, then spoil the effect with those occasional bits that don't fit the rest of it.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I don't know what the plant was, but it was a small, shrubby, rounded plant with small white flowers. Perhaps the plant that was shown in the "gathering scene" was the same one used in the following "treatment" scene, but instead of boiling water and scattering the leaves therein and bathing the wound, Aragorn (together with Arwen) treat Frodo who is at that point considerably worse off than he was when Aragorn treated him directly after the attack on Weathertop (he also had much smaller wound which was located in his shoulder, not his rib cage) <itb>.

At this point, Aragorn puts some of the leaves in his mouth and chews them. He then takes the macerated leaves and places them in the wound. This is an old way of treating wounds used by aborigines around the world. Chewing on the leaves breaks them down and permits them to release their curative powers into the wound. HOWEVER, whatever plant they used, they would have had to be careful that it would cause no problem for Mr. Mortensen when he put it in his mouth! I don't doubt that they gave the actor some relatively innocuous stuff like parsley rather than take the chance that he would turn green and die (thus causing a great expenditure of time and effort replacing him this far into the shooting).

From the description of the plant <itb>, it sounds like bay or some other large leafed plant rather than fennel or thyme which has smaller, finer leaves. Either way, by this time in the film, athelas was the least of their problems as far as accuracy was concerned.

 

[Elf_Maven]

Yes, Mrs. M, we all agree about the accuracy issue. But---wouldn't it be satisfying to know whether they actually had a valid rationale for using the plant they finally chose? And why did they start off with something different and then change it?

The DVD featurettes gave us so much behind-the-scenes information on other subjects, that I can only hope that this decision might be mentioned eventually in some of the extra material, either in the SE DVD of FOTR or in some later release related to ROTK, where athelas should make an appearance again.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I cannot find my books right now (rachit-fratchit!), but I seem to remember that athelas has a bloom and that bloom (or its smell) <itb> enables Aragorn to find the plant south of the road in the dark after the attack at Weathertop. If my memory serves me correctly in this (and it would be a miracle if it did!), tha fact would at least explain the choice of the plant with the small white flowers.

Also, if I remember correctly (twice?!?), athelas (kingsfoil) wasn't much to look at and therefore easily "overlooked" (like Aragorn himself perhaps?), so, again, the plant chosen in the scene would fit the bill: small, not flashy but with flowers.

There must be somewhere, someplace in all the stuff written about the making of the films, that the native plant species used for athelas in that scene (and perhaps later on in the story) is mentioned. It's the sort of esoterica that most devotees thrive on and of which SOMEONE keeps a record! Unless, of course, it was a "plant" rather than a plant, if you know what I mean! Sorry about that!

 

[Ariana Undomiel]

Good point, Mrs. Maggott!

~Ariana

 

[Wastrel]

joxy, The plant with long leaves shows up in the featurette about Languages and also in the Fox TV special. I noticed it somewhere else too, but it's just a repeat of the same scene with Aragorn crouching down next to Arwen at Frodo's side. In the final version he has the bushy shrub with little leaves and blossoms.

Ariana, you're right, it doesn't make any REAL difference. But since I HAVE read the book, and also noticed that at one point a different plant was being used to represent the nonexistent athelas, now I'm curious about why PJ used the one he did---was there some rationale for choosing it? I'm not a botanist, so I don't recognize it, but maybe they used a plant that really does have healing properties associated with it. "Inquiring minds want to know."

I am watching "The Desolation of Smaug" and the plant that Tauriel uses to heal Fili is oregano, in my opinion. It is a bushy shrub with little leaves and white blossoms, very similar to what I see. he blossoms range to light blue to pale purple, but some varieties are nearly white. Here's a picture https://i.etsystatic.com/27911330/r/il/5135b4/3558599287/il_1588xN.3558599287_1anr.jpg

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I am watching "The Desolation of Smaug" and the plant that Tauriel uses to heal Fili is oregano, in my opinion. It is a bushy shrub with little leaves and white blossoms, very similar to what I see. he blossoms range to light blue to pale purple, but some varieties are nearly white. Here's a picture https://i.etsystatic.com/27911330/r/il/5135b4/3558599287/il_1588xN.3558599287_1anr.jpg

Interesting. I haven't watched The Hobbit films in their entirety, but I am intrigued to hear what plants were used. I thought that they just used some leafy sort of plant, but I suppose it must have a clearly defined name in botany. I'd be interested to see where this thread goes.

 

[Faelellyn]

Actually, the plant used in the movies is white thyme. It grows everywhere, can be used medicinally, is considered an invasive plant and is also given to the pigs to eat. It is also found in purple

 

[Deimos]

Actually, the plant used in the movies is white thyme. It grows everywhere, can be used medicinally, is considered an invasive plant and is also given to the pigs to eat. It is also found in purple

Or...OR ... it could be myrtus communis (common myrtle) ... of which I have a half dozen or so growing on my property (cultivated, not wild).
It too has small white flowers (if and when it decides to bloom...sometimes it's rather recalcitrant about it).
From an article on plant pharmacology: mytrus communis: pharmacological and therapeutic effects such as antioxidative, anticancer, anti-diabetic, antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, hepatoprotective and neuroprotective activity.
(HA! Take that you viral, bacterial, fungasoid Witch King!)

It is fragrant (but not like perfume) just by running your hands over the flowers, but also the leaves, with a little pressure.
Crush them, and they are really fragrant, but again not perfume-y sickly sweet.
I'll have to break of some leafy twigs, crush and place in boiling water to see what they smell like.
When I bought the first one and ran my hand over the leaves, releasing the fragrance, my first thought was , "ATHELAS! How cool!" 😄

Its a shrub that can grow to 8 ft tall, but can be severely trimmed back if needed.
Mine are not 8 feet tall... more like 3 ft high x 3ft wide.

It is native to the Mediterranean region and will struggle in cold regions where it snows unless sheltered.
That Aragorn found it at the latitude of Weathertop is surprising but since there were hills close by it could have been sheltered enough to survive (tho' dormant) during the coldest months but thrived in the warmer months.
Recall it was only October 6 when the group was attacked in the dell below Weathertop.
It probably did much better in the south in Gondor where it was warmer year round, especially at the lower vales nearer Anduin.
(But I'm sure Ioreth could tell you a lot more about it. 😄)