Ban? What Ban?

[Manveru]

I'd like to apologise if it had been discussed before...

OK... now let's get to it...

From AKALLABETH The Downfall of Numenor:

But the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans. And at last Ar-Pharazôn came even to Aman, the Blessed Realm, and the coasts of Valinor; and still all was silent, and doom hung by a thread. For Ar-Pharazôn wavered at the end, and almost he turned back. His heart misgave him when he looked upon the soundless shores and saw Taniquetil shining, whiter than snow, colder than death, silent, immutable, terrible as the shadow of the light of Ilúvatar. But pride was now his master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore, claiming the land for his own, if none should do battle for it. And a host of the Númenóreans encamped in might about Túna, whence all the Eldar had fled.

The Valar set a Ban that said no ship from the Land of Gift was allowed "to sail so far westward that the coasts of Númenor could no longer be seen".
So...
How could Ar-Pharazon and his fleet assault Eressëa and the Blessed Realm? Was the Ban of the Valar just "hollow words" to frighten Men of Westernesse?

 

[Beleg]

The Valar set a Ban that said no ship from the Land of Gift was allowed "to sail so far westward that the coasts of Númenor could no longer be seen".
So...
How could Ar-Pharazon and his fleet assault Eressëa and the Blessed Realm? Was the Ban of the Valar just "hollow words" to frighten Men of Westernesse?

You are perhaps thinking of the ban as a physical entity, like some barracade or some fence was raised against enterence into Aman. That wasn't the case. Aman was not taken away from the circles of the earth, nor was it taken. It was just that the Valar had forbidden, Banned the Numenoreans to travel as much West as to lose the sight of their land.
Aman wasn't physically fenced but the Numenoreans were ordered to keep off and any voilence of it would have brought trouble.

On an other note, to continue from the Amandil thread.
Manveru posted,

As for Amandil and his quest... I came across this:

From AKALLABETH The Downfall of Numenor

But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwë hearkened to his prayer, by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day. For Elendil had remained in Romenna, refusing the summons of the King when he set forth to war; and avoiding the soldiers of Sauron that came to seize him and drag him to the fires of the Temple, he went aboard his ship and stood off from the shore, waiting on the time. There he was protected by the land from the great draught of the sea that drew all towards the abyss, and afterwards he was sheltered from the first fury of the storm. But when the devouring wave rolled over the land and Númenor toppled to its fall, then he would have been overwhelmed and would have deemed it the lesser grief to perish, for no wrench of death could be more bitter than the loss and agony of that day; but the great wind took him, wilder than any wind that Men had known, roaring from the west, and it swept his ships far away; and it rent their sails and snapped their masts, hunting the unhappy men like straws upon the water.

Elendil didn't get any sign, but he and his sons and his people were FORTUNATELY saved ("but the great wind took him..."). This proves that some higher power had a part in the escape of the Faithful from Numenor. But we don't know for sure whether it was Amandil's deed that brought about this wind... the Valar didn't wholy forget about them (they do know what was going on on the Land of Gift---I think)... and there's also Eru...

BTW: The drowning of Amandil's ship "as soon as Numenor was out of sight" seems vague to me... If it were true, then why didn't Ar-Pharazon's fleet drown? It wasn't an exception, that's for sure... I think it could be a good idea for a thred (unless it exists).
EDIT: If anyone is interested in debating this, please go here.

I am troubled by the usage of 'the' instead of 'a' in the sentence, 'But the great wind...'.
Couldn't it be possible that the great wind that arose was the consequences of the drowning? It could have been produced when the rift was created and might not have been specifically intended for the aid of the Elendili?
Eru btw only interfered when the Valar asked Him to.
The Valar were aware, I would be very surprised if they werren't, specially since the eagles of Manwe pased a few days prior to the assault.

 

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Beleg:
Aman wasn't physically fenced but the Numenoreans were ordered to keep off and any voilence of it would have brought trouble.

So this is an explanation to why all news of Amandil and his crew were lost...

Then why the Valar waited to punish Ar-Pharazon until he reached the shores of the Blessed Realm and "made himself comfortable" on the slopes of Taniquetil? Did they wait that long in case of Amandil or did they destroy his ship while still on the sea?

 

[Beleg]

So this is an explanation to why all news of Amandil and his crew were lost...

Then why the Valar waited to punish Ar-Pharazon until he reached the shores of the Blessed Realm and "made himself comfortable" on the slopes of Taniquetil? Did they wait that long in case of Amandil or did they destroy his ship while still on the sea?

The plea of Amandil might be one of the very cause why Valar contacted Eru instead of taking any direct step.
Now the attack of Tar-Calion and co was a grievous event. The Valar might be worth, but Men were the children of Eru and these men, the Numenoreans had once been faithful and subserviant to Eru. No wonder Manwe was grieved and he was loathe to take any direct, strict action against the Numenoreans. That is why he consulted Eru, who took the matters in His hand.

 

[Eriol]

The Valar waited "until the last moment possible" because they were willing (very much) to forgive the invasion.

And at last Ar-Pharazôn came even to Aman, the Blessed Realm, and the coasts of Valinor; and still all was silent, and doom hung by a thread. For Ar-Pharazôn wavered at the end, and almost he turned back.

From the Akallabêth.

The context of that quote establishes very clearly, in my opinion, that the Valar simply waited until they could not wait any longer, out of pity for the Numenóreans.

In a similar way, Gandalf would later avoid "dealing" with the fallen Saruman. It is a long thread in Tolkien's works -- the importance of hoping against hope that the evil guys will repent. Gollum is another good instance.

 

[Tumunzahar]

But why exactly did the Valar forbid the Nùmenoreans to sail too far to the West in the first place ?
What would have been so terrible about some of them visiting the Elves on Tol Eressëa for example ? It's not like they would have gained immortality by doing so...
I've searched The Silmarillion but I haven't found a clear reason for this so far.

 

[Lantarion]

But what about the Enchanted Isles? I thought their whole point was to keep sailors from entering Aman.
And in the Silmarillion at some point (before the Voyage of Eärendil) many ships IIRC try to gain entrance into Aman to ask for help, but the Enchanted Isles confound them..
It's been ages since I last read the Sil, I am ashamed..

 

[Eriol]

But what about the Enchanted Isles? I thought their whole point was to keep sailors from entering Aman.
And in the Silmarillion at some point (before the Voyage of Eärendil) many ships IIRC try to gain entrance into Aman to ask for help, but the Enchanted Isles confound them..
It's been ages since I last read the Sil, I am ashamed..

I think the Enchanted Isles were "set" on the seas after the Noldorin Exile, as part of the Doom of Mandos, and that they were "removed" after the War of Wrath. I don't think they had anything to do with the Ban of the Númenóreans, and Ar-Pharazôn's fleet does not have any problems in reaching Aman. The only "late" reference (i.e. after the 1st Age) to the Enchanted Isles that I recall is on the Book of Lost Tales, which is set on a period after the removal of Aman from the circles of the world.

I think Tolkien answered Tumunzahar's question in the Letters. I'll look for it later.

 

[Tumunzahar]

I think Tolkien answered Tumunzahar's question in the Letters. I'll look for it later.

*awaits in anticipation*

Think I'll just buy that book and get it over with

 

[Eriol]

Letter 131 (Tolkien is explaining his legendarium to Milton Waldman – probably late in 1951).

The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men – consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment! The Fall is achieved by the cunning of Sauron in exploiting this weakness. Its central theme is (inevitably, I think, in a story of Men) a Ban, or Prohibition.

The Númenóreans dwell within far sight of the easternmost ‘immortal’ land, Eressëa; and as the only men to speak an Elvish tongue (learned in the days of their Alliance) they are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressëa, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves – but they remained mortal, even though rewarded by a triple, or more than a triple, span of years. Their reward is their undoing – or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids to their achievements in art and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment. Foreseeing this in part, the gods lay a Ban on the Númenóreans from the beginning: they must never sail to Eressëa, nor westward out of sight of their own land. In all other direction they could go as they would. They must not set foot on ‘immortal’ lands, and so become enamoured of an immortality (within the world), which was against their law, the special doom or gift of Ilúvatar (God), and which their nature could not in fact endure.

There are three phases in their fall from Grace. First acquiescence, obedience that is free and willing, though without complete understanding. Then for long they obey unwillingly, murmuring more and more openly. Finally they rebel – and a rift appears between the King’s men and rebels, and the small minority of persecuted Faithful.

 

[Tumunzahar]

So the Ban was a kind of prevention from what the Valar knew could happen. They knew that living among the immortal Elves Men would crave even more for immortality and might ultimately rebel and go on a killing spree...

So in a way the Valar treated Men like spoilt, jelous little kiddies (which they ultimatly proved they are) that create havoc when they can't have what they want. Interesting

Thanks Eriol !

 

[Confusticated]

Spoilt jealous kiddies might be a way of putting it, but there is more than that letter explains.

And the ban wasn't only in place because it was thought Men would try to get there eventually, but also because Men could not dwell there.

From Aman in HoME 10:

In Aman things were far otherwise than in Middle-earth. But they resembled the mode of Elvish life, just as the Elves more nearly resemble the Valar and Maiar than do Men.
In Aman the length of the unit of 'year' was the same as it was for the Quendi. But for a different reason. In Aman this length was assigned by the Valar for their own purposes, and was related to that process which may be called the 'Ageing of Arda'. For Aman was within Arda and therefore within the Time of Arda (which was not eternal, whether Unmarred or Marred). Therefore Arda and all things in it must age, however slowly, as it proceeds from beginning to end. This ageing could be perceived by the Valar in about that length of time (proportionate to the whole of Arda's appointed span) which they called a Year; but not in a less period.
But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.
The unit, or Valian Year, was thus not in Aman related to the natural rates of 'growth' of any person or thing that dwelt there. Time in Aman was actual time, not merely a mode of perception. As, say, 100 years went by in Middle-earth as part of Arda, so 100 years passed in Aman, which was also a part of Arda. It was, however, the fact that the Elvish speed of 'growth' accorded with the unit of Valian time that made it possible for the Valar to bring the Eldar to dwell in Aman.

Then, from Aman and Mortal Men, HoME 10:

If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Numenoreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.
Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged.
Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (unless Men brought these evils with them - as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.)
But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass - even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, being denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.

Mortal men by nature just are not fit to dwell in Aman where everything ages so slowly.

But if the Numenoreans were spoilt it was because they were given something by people who should have known better, which contributed to their Fall. Longer life and dwelling in Numenor itself. The Valar are spoilt... they go around screwing up things for the Children and being selfish, and Eru never steps in that we know of to give them a real spanking. The only punishment they have is grief for the pains of others and loss of their holy Tree light? Yet they get to put the Noldor through hell for falling into Melkor's lies and Feanor's powerful words after the Valar were suckered into letting Melkor among them.

 

[ChunkyLover53]

Not saying it makes reference to this, but it could be similar to God creating the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Iunno. Sounds interesting; maybe for both, only God and Eru know the true reasons. Tolkien was Christian . . . again, just connecting possibilities.