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Bilbo VS Frodo as ringbearers

Just asking you to show your work is all.
Ah, if this is the case, wait 'til I get started on Frodo.

AFter all, if I'm going to 'show my work' on Bilbo and my 'take' on his character (which is all more exhaustive than just the above has touched on so far frankly), it might only be fair for me to relate my thoughts on Frodo at some point. We'll see.
 
Well, seeing as you'd like to agree to disagree, a few final thoughts (feel free to ignore):

You see selfishness in Bilbo's daring to try to pick the troll's pocket. I see his Tookish, adventure-loving side coming to the fore. And it's weird to think of someone as being selfish when he's putting his own neck on the line. I would certain consider it rash and foolish of Bilbo to try that stunt, but I can't figure any selfishness into it.
 
Isildur did not attempt to kill Sauron to obtain the Ring.
He was not even aware of the full power of the Ring, that the Ring was intimately bound to the will of the Dark Lord.
He attempted to Kill Sauron because Sauron was the overarching menace, the enemy who was near to obliterating the Elves and Men.
In war, killing the enemy is not evil. It is what you do, what everyone on both sides does.
Your goal is to subjugate the enemy, to bring him to his knees; if you have to kill him to do that then that is what you do.
 
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Sure, I agree that Isildur did the right thing by "killing" Sauron, I just think that getting the Ring via inheritance is more honest then winning it in a battle. I'm not saying that Isildur did anything wrong.
 
I don't follow you. If getting the via inheritance is "more honest" , then getting it via winning it in a battle, must perforce (logically) be "less honest."
That is, there is a measure of "dishonesty" in winning it in a battle.

I am assuming you are 1) referring to means (method) of acquiring the Ring and 2) using the time honored definition of "honest",
According t the Cambridge dictionary ..."honest" (as means or method): genuine, unadulterated, respectable, worthy of praise, having integrity

I am pressing you on this because words that define and describe actions as virtuous (worthy of praise) or vicious (deserving of condemnation) are too often used with little (or no) thought as to what they mean.
In any discussion one should be ready to define one's terms used in argument.

So, why would winning the Ring in a battle have some measure of dishonesty about it?
That is, what makes that way less genuine, or respectable, or less worthy of praise than inheriting it?
 
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Ok, I didn't word my post right. Honest wasn't the right word. I understand that you vale correct wording, but I don't want to argue about this.
 
Ok, I didn't word my post right. Honest wasn't the right word. I understand that you vale correct wording, but I don't want to argue about this.
Yep. Difficult to discuss (or argue) when people don't use "correct wording." It's like using two different languages and neither person being understood.
Can't expect much progress. 😉
 
I don't follow you. If getting the via inheritance is "more honest" , then getting it via winning it in a battle, must perforce (logically) be "less honest."
A total aside here (maybe) but let's look at this issue of "winning it in battle."
Does "winning something in battle" make it "yours" ???

Isildur and the ring are, in this respect, similar to Smaug and the Dwarves' treasure.
Smaug legitimately 'won' their treasure in battle. Yet the Dwarves still considered it their own, and went to reclaim it.

In our 'real world' (caution needed talking on this subject) are we any different? If someone overpowers us, and takes our country, they naturally assume all 'right and ownership' to all the spoils they have 'won'. Yet - the "loser" in a battle always continues to consider what was taken "theirs".

An interesting point for discussion, no?

Isildur's cutting the ring finger from Sauron was pure "luck" some would say - providence others would say.

I'll do some research, but are we certain he knew nothing of its power? The Elves certainly knew, and were in the battle at that time with them, yes? Why would they have withheld the information? And he certainly knew, by the time he refused to throw it into the fire to destroy it.

Anyway, a number of things tied up in the above exchange - a number of really exciting things.

Thought I'd toss it out there - and though I won't personally add any more to the discussion about it, I'd be interested in others' thoughts.

Maybe there are other threads out there about both the "war and ownership" issues, and the "how much did isildur know about the ring" issues... i'll do some reasearch in my spare time.
 
From my understanding Isildur knew the ring had some kind of power or force associated with it. I don't think he knew it could make its wearer invisible, but I could be wrong about that. And he certainly didn't know the power of the Ring to influence its wearer.

Since time immemorial (cf The Iliad) weapons, armour , chariots, horses won, or left, on the field after a battle belong to the victor, if he chooses to claim them. There was never any question about it; only modern sensibilities call that into question.
If it were determined such spoils belonged to, say, the local landowners or peasants then maybe a just conqueror would return them to their rightful owners.
But I seriously doubt that Isildur (or Elendil, Gil-Galad or Elrond) would question whether or not Sauron's Ring or mace or amour originally belonged to anyone else but Sauron himself. Hence Isildur rightfully claimed the Ring at the time.
What happened afterwards, Isildur's refusal to heed the counsel of Elrond and Cirdan to destroy the Ring, can be attributed to the influence of the Ring.
But when he first took it from Sauron's severed hand, there was nothing wrong or immoral or dishonest about that.
 
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