BoLT: The 🎶Music of the Ainur

[Confusticated]

About Ainulindale versions:

Aside from the one in BoLT, we have the one in The Lost Road, that is Ainulindale B given in full, and notes on A.. written in the 30s.

Then in Morgoth's Ring we have C and C*(round earth version, written before C) given in full, and the differences from C to D (the final Ainulindale) are given. See Ainulindale in Morgother's Ring for details and dating.


One idea that is not seen here but shows up in the rewriting on the 30s is the idea that the Ainur grew slowly to understand eachother and sang first a few together.

I have not filled all the empty spaces, neither have I recounted to you all the
adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full.

Iluvatar gave the Ainur an outline to work with, and while this isn't said in the Ainulindale of the published Silmarillion, this is how I had looked at it. I imagine that the events or moments existing in Iluvatar's outline are those things that are Doom. Does there come a time within Arda that the outline stops, or is even the last moment of Arda Doomed to be so?

We have gone from this text in BoLT having "I have taught you much and set brightly the Secret Fire within you"

To having "since I have kindled you with the Fire" in Ainulindale B.

To later having "I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable" in the later versions told in Vol X.

There is mention in BoLT of Iluvatar setting the Secret Fire into the Ainur, and later that Melkor searched for the Secret Fire. If it was within the Ainur, then what exactly did Melkor look for? And why was it said that he did not find it, for it dwell with Iluvatar?

How do you interpret the difference between "set within you" and "kindled you with"?

Here we have Ainur as harpists and pipers and using other instruments, but later on we don't have this. It causes me to view the Ainur as beings of human-like form, whereas in The Silmarillion I do not. I do not see how they could be of human-like form since they were said to have taken on a form like that of the elves only after they saw the elves in the vision and went into Arda.

...though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Iluvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End.

In the next Ainulindale that Tolkien wrote in the 30s, the sons of men was changed to "the children of Iluvatar", and never changed back. CT says:

It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the
substitution of another common phrase, and that this wasnever subsequently picked up.

What do you think, was this unintentional?

 

[Beleg]

Talking about Nóm’s question,



Q#1.

How do you interpret the difference between "set within you" and "kindled you with"?

To answer this we need to first observe the context of which it is written.

Set within you can be interpreted as “made you or created you” with it. That the very essence of Vala is created with the

While kindled you with indicated to me that the first was used to start the concept of the creation of Ainur, like the fire was used to make their most central essence and the Ainur were built around it. It can also be taken around the way that Ainur were made and the flame imperishable was used to give them some special touch, some special power.


But to understand it we need to first understand what the secret fire, “the flame imperishable” is. I have always believed the flame imperishable to be Illúvatar’s power of creation. Of creating a totally new being. We know that Morgoth could not create, only manipulate, influence and destroy. Illúvatar can create. We can say it that “flames imperishable” is something by which “essence” Of a new thing, a new creation is poured the soulless body. Much like a soul, you can say a soul generator or soul kindler. The soul, the Fea of a child is triggered. You may argue then how Aule was able to make Dwarves.
I believe that this matter can be reasoned with the phrase, “Set within you.” Eru created the Vala with the flame Imperishable, hence being the omnipotent, being the God he also granted them permission to use it. And he also granted that permission to Melkor, since he was a Ainu too, but only till he didn’t turn against Eru itself. Eru is the omnipotent and thus whatever thing this fire is, it must have been created by Eru itself. If not, then the whole concept of Eru being the God is destroyed. Since, if we think that Vala were able to create new beings too by using this flame imperishable.

And why was it said that he did not find it, for it dwell with Illúvatar?

And yet…I think Melkor was wrong here. The flame Imperishable I don’t think was some worldly object that Melkor could find rotting in the junkyard, I think it was the very thoughts of Eru, like the God, I don’t think we can define it in any particular form.
It dwell with Illúvatar in the form that being the Omnipotent the God, Eru had the over all control over this “flame” and only he could sanction and allow the usage of this flame. This concept perhaps is also strengthened by the fact that Eru was able to put the Dwarves at sleep after they awoke, meaning that he
Had Total and overall control of Imperishable flame. Melkor perhaps wanted himself to be seen equal to Eru because he desired to gain the flame imperishable and his claim at it could only be supplemented if he was thought as the supreme God or one of the Gods.

Q£2:

Here we have Ainur as harpists and pipers and using other instruments, but later on we don't have this. It causes me to view the Ainur as beings of human-like form, whereas in The Silmarillion I do not. I do not see how they could be of human-like form since they were said to have taken on a form like that of the elves only after they saw the elves in the vision and went into Arda.

Well didn’t elves also play harps and spent time in Merry-making? I think you need to generalize the concept of Merry-making for it is a thing done universally by Children of Illúvatar, And I think Tolkien was correct in changing the name to Children of Illúvatar, and it was intentional since Valar changed into the shapes of Children of Illúvatar, and since these bodies and shapes brought certain implementations along with them and they had to live by the ways these bodies were designed to live, the Ainur lived according to the rites of Children of Illúvatar and not only Elves.

C*
But when they clad themselves the Valar arrayed themselves in the
form and temper some as of male and some as of female; and the
choice that they made herein proceeded, doubtless, from that
temper that each had from their uttermost beginning; for male and
female are not matters only of the body any more than of the
raiment.

The C text has here:

But when they clad themselves the Valar arrayed them in the form
some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper
they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the
choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and
female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby.

The above is the C and C* version from Morgoth’s ring and this paragraph is specially related by CT with regard to Tolkien’s change of words and concept about Valar appearences. It seems that Tolkien was ever in two minds and not quite sure himself about the symbolic appearences possessed by Vala in Middle-Earth.

I don’t quite understand CT reasoning here. We are talking about “what, if’s and but’s” and it might have also been possible that Tolkien changed the wordings because he wanted to show Vala in the form of Children of Illuvatar, in Plural and not one specific race.

I am not sure whether Tolkein has somewhere speicifically stated that Vala choose the form of Elves, (I get the impression that there is such case) but we all know that Tolkien loved to shuffled about with his work, he loved to create different versions of one story and often changed his mind after he wrote something. The change of mind could be due to anything, presumebly because he might not be satisfied with the quality of the wording or perhaps because he feels that the word before didn’t give out the full meaning or the meaning in such a way as he meant, or perhaps the word might be unsuitble with regard to the context. Thus i don’t think it was unintentional but might have happened due to Tolkien’s habbit of continually ammending his texts and perhaps because he felt that te phrase might be more suitble then the one beforehand.


Another statement that has puzzled me in the reading Ainulindale of BOLT1.

In this way the mischief of Melko spread darkening the Music, for those thoughts of his came from the outer black-ness whither Illúvatar had not yet turned the light of his face; BOLT1

Somehow I feel that this phrase mars the belief of Eru being Omnipotent. It can be defined in two ways. Either that it is a place which Eru created and later gave no heed to, but in this case the question arises that why did he create Blackness, since he basically symbolizes the light side? And since he was omnipotent and knew the events of the future (presumably since Ubber Gods’ are supposed to know this?) then knowing the future and what might happen, did Illúvatar allow the things to proceed on as they would, knowing beforehand what might happen but doing nothing to alter it because he wanted to test? the fibre and character of his children? This sounds so suspiciously like the real life God.
And secondly this can also be interpreted that the Outer Blackness was something that Eru had not created, but had gotten it from someone. Perhaps I am wrong but this line gives me vibes of polytheism. However, that’s just a thought, a feeling I get from reading this portion. What puzzles me more is the first part.
What was the purpose of Illúvatar behind creating his children and if he was omnipotent and could foresee or forestall the future and could alter then why did he allowed the evil to nourish, since he knew that it would cause great grievances to his children, whom he loved a great deal?

Sorry for being so puzzling, but these were just points that came into my head when I was reading Ainulindale.

 

[Maedhros]

What was the purpose of Illúvatar behind creating his children and if he was omnipotent and could foresee or forestall the future and could alter then why did he allowed the evil to nourish, since he knew that it would cause great grievances to his children, whom he loved a great deal?

Perhaps because the evil of Melkor, was an ingredient after all. You would need the bad in order to have the Good. Arda Remade.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Similarly the Elves faded, having introduced 'art and science'. Men will also 'fade', if it proves to be the plan that things shall still go on, when they have completed their function. But even the Elves had the notion that this would not be so: that the end of Men would somehow be bound up with the end of history, or as they called it 'Arda Marred' (Arda Sahta), and the achievement of 'Arda Healed' (Arda Envinyanta). (They do not seem to have been clear or precise - how should they be! - whether Arda Envinyanta was a permanent state of achievement, which could therefore only be enjoyed 'outside Time', as it were: surveying the Tale as an englobed whole; or a state of unmarred bliss within Time and in a 'place' that was in some sense a lineal and historical descent of our world or 'Arda Marred'. They seem often to have meant both. 'Arda Unmarred' did not actually exist, but remained in thought - Arda without Melkor, or rather without the effects of his becoming evil; but is the source from which all ideas of order and perfection are derived. 'Arda Healed' is thus both the completion of the 'Tale of Arda' which has taken up all the deeds of Melkor, but must according to the promise of Ilúvatar be seen to be good; and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)

I also liked the detail in the Ainulindalë in Bolt.
From the Book of Lost Tales I: The Music of the Ainur

Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest."

I think it was better explained in the Original Music of the Ainur.

What do you think, was this unintentional?

I think it was a slip.

 

[Arvedui]

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.