Bombadil as old as 🌟stars in the fearless dark

[banakil]

The Problem: JRR Tolkien wrote in his unpublished notes and again in Fellowship of the Ring, "[Tom Bombadil] knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside." Christopher Tolkien comments this is a problem, "These words are extremely surprising; for in the Quenta Silmarillion which my father had only set aside at the end of the previous year it is told that 'Rana [the Moon] was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the region of the stars, and was the elder of the lights, as was Silpion of the Trees' (V. 240)". See History of Middle Earth, Vol. 2, pp. 121-22.

Christopher's added context on the problem: "Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words (retained in FR) 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside'? It must be said that it seems unlikely that Bombadil would refer to Valinor across the Great Sea as 'Outside', especially since this was long ages 'before the seas were bent' when Numenor was drowned; it would seem much more natural to interpret the word as meaning 'the Outer Dark', the 'the Void' beyond the Walls of the World. But in the mythology as it was when my father began The Lord of the Rings Melkor entered 'the World' with the other Valar, and never left it until his final defeat. It was only with his return to The Silmarillion after The Lord of the Rings was completed that there entered the account found in the published work (pp. 35-7) of the First War, in which Melkor was defeated by Tulkas and driven into the Outer Dark, from which he retunred in secret while the Valar were resting from tehri labours on the Isle of Almaren, and overthrew the Lamps, ending the Spring of Arda. It seems then that either Bombadile must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valionor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had already at this date developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor."

Three Proposed Solutions: There are three other proposed solutions that Christopher Tolkien did not mention explicitly:

1. Metaphor. Perhaps the stars are metaphors for the Ainur (see e.g., Silmarillion, Ainulindale, p. 14 ("Varda, Lady of the Stars...the light of Iluvatar still lives in her face"). Angels are explicitly metaphors for stars in the Book of Revelation, and it is said about Melkor (as it is also suggested about a fallen angel) that Melkor descended like a burning mountain into the sea). Compare Silmarillion, Ainulindale, p. 10 ("And [Melkor] descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire") and Revelation 8:8 and 12:4 ("The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain ablaze with fire was hurled into the sea."; one third of stars fall to earth)

2. Literal. The literal text keeps open the possibility that Varda was creating stars before Melkor arrived, because she was working before Melkor arrived, and presumably that meant creating stars because that was her skill and passion.

• Melkor spent time alone in the dark void before coming to Arda. "[Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and hew was impatient of its emptiness. yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." Silmarillion, Ainulindale, p. 4.
  
  
• Varda was labouring [probably on stars] before Melkor arrived. "And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults. Then Melkor saw was was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was alike a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold."
  
  
• Stars are ancient and can preexist the trees, sun, and moon. "But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Iluvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea. And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear, and he wielded cold and fire, from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them" Silmarillion, Of The Beginning of Days, p. 27.

3. Ethereal. Another possible solution is that Bombadil remembers being in the vision of Arda. There is much about Tom that is visionary and ethereal, including the importance of Frodo's dreams while at Tom's house. Tom could see Frodo wearing the ring while Frodo was supposed to be invisible. The Ring had no effect on Tom's visibility; to the contrary Tom makes the ring disappear! All together, this suggests that Tom may have some unseen ancient power linked to the original vision of Ea before the world was even formed. Let's go super deep here. If 'something' comes from 'nothing', then is 'something' actually just a hypothetical/vision/concept inside the mind of Iluvatar? This has been suggested about God by various ancient Christian mystics. See e.g., Professor Matt explaining in his article, “Ayin: Concept of Nothingness” (“John Scotus Erigena, a ninth-century Christian mystic influenced by Plotinus, was perhaps the first to apply the term ‘nothing’ to God. Writing in Latin, he calls God nihil, by which he means not the lack but the transcendence of being. Because of ‘the ineffable, incomprehensible and inaccessible brilliance of the divine goodness . . . it is not improperly called ‘nothing’ . . . Medieval Christian mystics who speak of divine nothingness, such as Meister Eckhart and Jacob Boehme, are indebted to John Scotus.” Page 43.

Back to Tom, the importance here would be the ethereal idea that Iluvatar created Tom to represent a principle of visible creation/existence. In JRR Tolkien's notes we read, "Tom Bombadil is an 'aborigine' - he knew the land before men, before hobbits, before barrow-wights, yes before the necromancer - before the elves came to this quarter of the world. Goldberry says he is 'master of water, wood and hill'. Does all this land belong to him? No! The land and the things belong to themselves. He is not the possessor but the master, because he belongs to himself." History of Middle Earth, Volume II, p. 117.

Ethereally, what does that mean? to belong to yourself

 

[banakil]

Reading History of Middle Earth makes you wonder how many times JRR Tolkien changed the names of his children before they were born: Chrysophus, Carson Christopher, Camelot,, Christopher

 

[Deimos]

Reading History of Middle Earth makes you wonder how many times JRR Tolkien changed the names of his children before they were born: Chrysophus, Carson Christopher, Camelot,, Christopher

"Camelot." 😬 Good heavens. That shows that even Tolkien was capable, on occasion, of an appallingly frightful idea.

 

[banakil]

Fortunately that was just me making a joke about hypothetical names for Tolkien's children. He never proposed those I am sure he had the good sense to stay grounded with traditional English names.

Here's a real one though from the book: Nimrodel. In History of Middle Earth we learn the name evolved like this through six iterations: Linglorel, Inglorel, Nimladel, Nimlorel, Nimlothel, Nimrodel.

 

[Olorgando]

Reading History of Middle Earth makes you wonder how many times JRR Tolkien changed the names of his children before they were born: Chrysophus, Carson Christopher, Camelot,, Christopher

No, as to Christopher JRRT took the easy way out and named him after his friend from King Edward's School in Birmingham, core member of the school (and later, when all were either at Oxford or Cambridge) group TCBS, Christopher Wiseman. JRRT and Wiseman were the two WW I survivors of the core group of four, the other two were casualties in the 1916 Battle of the Somme.

 

[Elthir]

Christopher's added context on the problem: "(edit for brevity) But in the mythology as it was when my father began The Lord of the Rings Melkor entered 'the World' with the other Valar, and never left it until his final defeat. "

I think the part I'm highlighting in orange is the reason for Christopher Tolkien's reaction here. In other words, I'd say he thinks it's surprising that Bombadil should say this given the mythology as it stood at the time.

Under your literal solutions, you've quoted from the 1977 constructed Silmarillion, but that's a different animal of course, and I'd say (not that you said otherwise) that CJRT wasn't looking at future texts for proposed solutions.

Christopher Tolkien explained: It was only with his return to The Silmarillion after The Lord of the Rings was completed that there entered the account found in the published work (pp. 35-7) of the First War, in which Melkor was defeated by Tulkas and driven into the Outer Dark, from which he returned in secret while the Valar were resting from their labours on the Isle of Almaren, and overthrew the Lamps, ending the Spring of Arda.

As a bit of an aside: this is true given the complete description here from Christopher Tolkien, which includes the Lamps. And one may note that JRRT's Round World Ainulindale was already in existence by 1948, and is tentatively dated to 1946. This version includes Melkor fleeing from Tulkas, but not the overthrow of the Lamps (as in this version, Ainulindale C*, there's no need for the Lamps).

CJRT continues: It seems then that either Bombadil must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valinor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had already at this date developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor."

Indeed. And again, I think CJRT is simply thinking about the Ainulindale and Quenta Silmarillion from The Lost Road and Other Writings. And in these versions, Melkor entered into the world with the Valar, who then dwelt in many places (firmament, depths of the sea, earth, "or in Valinor upon the border of earth"). And within this context, Melkor "for a long while walked alone," wielding fire and frost, "from the Walls of the World to the deepest furnaces that are under it."

In this early-ish Ainulindale Varda is said to have made the stars, but it's to this Quenta Silmarillion that we look for the timing: Morgoth has overthrown the Lamps, and in the North he builds his strength and gathers his demons around him (Balrogs) "But in that time Morgoth made many monsters of divers kinds and shapes that long troubled the world" and it is here said that "his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-Earth."

Then Varda looked out upon the darkness and was moved, and she made the stars: "She strewed the unlit skies with these bright vessels", including the Burning Briar high in the North, a challenge unto Morgoth.

Moving on: why Tolkien could ultimately keep Bombadil's words as they stood is another question.

2. Literal. The literal text keeps open the possibility that Varda was creating stars before Melkor arrived, because she was working before Melkor arrived, and presumably that meant creating stars because that was her skill and passion.

I'd add that the text as written keeps open the possibility that the Sun existed before the Elves passed over the Sea, which is the conclusion I draw from Treebeard's tale about the Entwives in The Two Towers.

But certainly, and generally speaking (and again, not that you said otherwise), Tolkien was not done with his cosmology and history when he wrote both the Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion as published in The Lost Road.

Anyway, I like your bit about the metaphorical "stars". Interesting in any case! Thanks!

🐾

 

[banakil]

Wow, great reply! Shows depth of understanding.

Looking at the early versions circa 1940s (Ainulindale and Quenta Silmarillion from The Lost Road and Other Writings) do you know whether:
1. Eru made stars before Varda? Seems plausible given the biblical order in Genesis (earth made by God on the third day, then stars made by God on the fourth day).
2. Varda made some stars while the earth was dark and before Melkor made the earth fearsome? This too would be like biblical timing, where the original design was good but then later in time evil appears.

Either situation would solve CJRT's surprise, yes?

 

[Elthir]

Hello Banakil! Thanks!

With respect to your first question, so far (although admittedly I didn't check NOME) I can't find any Tolkienian musings of that kind until the later 1950s, noting an idea in Myths Transformed where it's said that Varda makes the Principle Stars and major patterns (Orion for example), but not all the stars in general.

Even in the early 1950s, Christopher Tolkien seems to associate the establishment of Arda "in the midst of the innumerable stars" with Varda making stars "in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea"
(see especially commentary on section 24 to The Annals of Aman, section 1, Morgoth's Ring).

Regarding scenario 2, I can't really find that. And the Later Annals of Valinor (The Lost Road) agree with Varda fashioning the stars after Yavanna reproached the Valar for their neglected stewardship of Middle-earth. And Morgoth had made his fortress in the North, and is said to have held sway with violence and the lands were yet more broken in that time (though he withdrew from Orome's horn).

There's a sentence in the Ainulindale of that time, concerning Manwe upon Taniquetil: "Spirits in the shape of hawks and of eagles flew ever to and from his house, whose eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, whose wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of darkness; and they brought word to him of well-nigh all that passed: yet some things are hid even from the eyes of Manwe"

But to my mind this is a description from an author who already knows future things, as is evident elsewhere in this same text, and doesn't necessarily give us a chronology with respect to these lights of heaven in any case. CJRT doesn't even comment on it.

That all said, Christopher Tolkien does bring up the question of whether or not Tom could be referring to the return of Morgoth after the destruction of the Two Trees (as you already quoted):

"Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words (retained in FR) 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside'? It must be said that it seems unlikely that Bombadil would refer to Valinor across the Great Sea as 'Outside', especially. . ."

And we do have cases where Tolkien uses the term Outer Lands at least, to refer to (among other things) "The Western Land, Valinor" (HME IV) "the western land, beyond the Great Sea" (HME V), and the "Outer Land of Aman" (HME X):

"In time the hosts of the Eldalie came to the last western shores of the Hither Lands. In the North
these shores, in the ancient days after the battle with the gods, sloped ever eastward, until in the northernmost parts of the earth only a narrow sea divided the Outer Land of Aman, upon which Valinor was built, from the Hither Lands; but this narrow sea was filled with grinding ice. . ."

Close enough? Maybe Tom had just read the Later Quenta Silmarillion I

Of course, if so, then the dark would seem to be "fearless" (or "fearless enough") before Morgoth's return after destroying the Trees, noting that even before that, we have this much said in the relevant text (quoted here again for easy reference): "But in that time Morgoth made many monsters of divers kinds and shapes that long troubled the world" and "his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-Earth."

Well, we can't have everything in any case! Where would we put it all?

🐾

 

[banakil]

Oh man that's so true! I read your replies like 5 times, very good researching, thank you!

 

[Elthir]

Thanks for the thread actually. I had fun diving in!

In general, I'm interested in how Tolkien's published work (TH, LOTR, ATB, RGEO) can be read without reading any of the posthumously published works. Possibly 'cause that's how I "had" to read them?

I'm old.

Also, although I'd read The Lord of the Rings first in any case, the version of The Hobbit I read later was the Third Edition. So, even if I had read The Hobbit before The Lord of the Rings, I would likely have been reading the following revision that Tolkien himself made with respect to the raising of the Sun and Moon; in other words, I would likely have been reading The Hobbit Third Edition

First Edition: “before they came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise. They loved best the edges of the woods,"

Third Edition: “before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, (. . .)"

That's not to say if I had read an earlier Hobbit edition first, I surely would have remembered this one line when I came to something in The Lord of the Rings, and would have understood Ban and Ran's Middle-earth as one in which Elves lived for a while with no sun; it's rather merely to say that I wouldn't even have had this earlier version (in small purple letters) to ponder.

Not until later of course.

And I just realized that no one asked. . . so goodby for now