Carrying objects while invisible...

[grimalkin]

I'm reading through 'A brief history of the hobbit' john d rateliff, and was pondering on Bilbo and his invisibility on wearing the ring. He actually stole food from King Thranduil's kitchens though was it visible when carried around? likewise was sting his sword visible? and does Tolkien give any details or rules as regards to the visibility or invisibilty of objects being carried, lest we forget his clothes which are invisible too when wearing the ring. So does food disappear when an invisible Bilbo handles it?

 

[Alcuin]

I think food, bottles or skins of wine, and other objects were invisible as long as Bilbo hid them beneath in his clothes. Likewise Sting was invisible unless he unsheathed it: the spiders in Mirkwood could see his sword; I don’t believe Tolkien mentioned that it was glowing, only that the spiders could see it.

Now, I suppose that perhaps a normal weapon, like one of the Dwarves’ knives, might have remained invisible, and that Sting was unusual because it was either forged in Valinor, in which case it might exist in both the normal world and the “other side” at once, or because it was forged in Gondolin by a Noldorin smith who made it that way; but that seems to be pushing the matter rather far. The simplest explanation is that Bilbo and his clothes were invisible; he could hide things beneath his clothes, rendering them invisible, too; but anything he took from beneath his clothes became visible once again.

Later on, in The Lord of the Rings, Frodo can see the Nazgûl wearing clothes and armor beneath their black cloaks while he’s wearing the Ring; later when he fades due to the power of the Morgul-knife, he can see the Nazgûl even without the Ring. I take that to mean that the Nazgûl were not literally wandering around “naked” or were “nothingness”, terms Gandalf seems to be using rather poetically to describe their existence in the wraith-world (the spirit world, the “misty” place Frodo and Sam experience while wearing the Ring). But he and his companions could see the Nazgûl’s swords. As soon as it grew even partly light, Aragorn quickly found the Morgul-knife that wounded Frodo; I think he could see it before the Witch-king struck, but I don’t recall Tolkien explicitly saying so.

If a Ring of Power made a Man’s clothes invisible when he wore it, does that mean if he removed his shoe and threw it at someone, the shoe would become visible as soon as it left his hand? That seems to be what happened when Bilbo threw stones at the spiders.

As an aside, I doubt the Rings made Elves invisible. One of their motives in making the Rings of Power was to avoid fading, the process whereby their spirits (called fëar) slowly consumed their bodies (hröar), until only an Elf’s fëa remained. If the Rings made Elves invisible, that would defeat the whole purpose of avoiding fading. Mortals don’t fade under normal circumstances. (Frodo faded some, and maybe Gollum, too, but their experiences weren’t normal.) I think invisibility caused by the Rings of Power was a perverse and possibly unexpected effect upon Mortals.

 

[grimalkin]

Thankyou for shedding light on the invisible and visible alike this makes much more sense now at least in my mind. It could also be that images viewed in the mind are limited to faces or symbols. Anway, in the book mentioned above the author comments on earlier versions of JRR s hobbit writings, in one of which he says that the world was also full of invisible elves and invisible goblins the latter being very wicked, even more so than the visible ones ...

 

[Deleted member 12094]

I revisited this question, because I was curious if there was any mention about a Ring-bearer using a sword (Sting) while wearing at the same time the ring. If so, then that could give us a hint on whether the sword would be visible or invisible together with the rest of the Ring-bearer.

Such instance could have occurred (unless I overlooked something) in one of the following situations:

1. Bilbo having Gollem on his way, out of the Misty Mountains
2. Bilbo fighting the spiders in Mirkwood
3. Bilbo facing Smaug
4. Bilbo in the battle of the 5 armies
5. Frodo on Weathertop
6. Frodo escaping from Boromir's attempt to take the Ring
7. Sam fighting off Shelob
8. Sam liberating Frodo in Cirith Ungol
9. Frodo fighting with Gollem on the Orodruin

Following a review of these situations, I would summarize:

• Cases 1,3,4,6,9: Whilst the Ring was used, no use of Sting was mentioned. Regarding 1 (and maybe other cases too) beware that this does not apply to the corresponding movie scene in which he drew his sword which remained invisible. In my personal opinion the "canonic" source should remain Tolkien's pen.
• Case 7: Whilst Sting was used, no use of the Ring was mentioned.
• Case 5: Frodo used both the Ring and Sting: "Suddenly to his horror Sam found that his master had vanished; and at that moment a black shadow rushed past him, and he fell. [...] They saw nothing more, until they stumbled over the body of Frodo, lying as if dead, face downwards on the grass with his sword beneath him." However, this does not say whether or not his companions were noticing Sting while Frodo was wearing the Ring.
• Case 8: this complicated part of the tale relates use of use of Sting and of the Ring, but it does not mention any simultaneous use of both of them.
• Case 2: This seems to be the most explicit event. Bilbo used both the Ring and Sting: "Bilbo had slipped on his ring before he started. That is why the spiders neither saw nor heard him coming". As soon as he used Sting during the fight: "The spiders saw the sword, though I don’t suppose they knew what it was, and at once the whole lot of them came hurrying after the hobbit along the ground and the branches".

In conclusion, I think that Tolkien meant that invisibility when wearing the Ring was upon the Ring-bearer but not upon any weapon that he held.

 

[Alcuin]

Merroe, it looks like we agree. One quibble: Frodo was not using Sting on Weathertop. He had one of the barrow-blades from Tom Bombadil, as did the other three hobbits: “it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand.” The Witch-king broke this sword at the Ford of Bruinen, when he and the other Nazgûl tried to cross over to Frodo; all Tolkien tells us is that the Witch-king “stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised his hand. … [Frodo’s] sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.” Regardless, though, you are correct: there is no mention of his companions on Weathertop seeing Frodo’s sword, though the Nazgûl certainly did!

With respect, we really don’t know for certain whether Gollum could see Sting while Bilbo was invisible or not. Bilbo “struck his toes on a snag in the floor, and fell flat with his little sword under him.” He sheathed the sword before following Gollum. What we can say is that Gollum could not see the sword through him, even though it was “glowing faintly again.”

You assembled a fairly comprehensive list. There is one important instance you did not mention; your excellent list called it to mind. I’d like to ramble on about it for a while.

When the Orcs at Cirith Ungol found Frodo’s body, Sam was still wearing the Ring, which he put on when Gorbag’s company came over the crest of the pass in front of him. As he rushed down toward the Orcs when they took his master’s body, he said to himself, “‘They’ll see the flame of the sword as soon as I draw it,’” so he knew that once drawn, Sting – or at least its light – was not hidden by the Ring. He chased them as they entered Shelob’s Lair carrying Frodo: “He drew the sword, a flicker of blue in his wavering hand, but they did not see it.” The Orcs weren’t looking at him, because he was behind them, of course: Shelob was the risk they feared, and she was somewhere ahead of them. Their failure to notice Sting was mundane: they’d have still failed to notice Sting were Sam visible and wearing a clown costume, because all their attention was focused on the dangerous passage past a monster that wanted to eat them.

Sam continued wearing the Ring while brandishing Sting as he re-entered Torech Ungol. “It no longer seemed very dark to him in the tunnel, rather it was as if he had stepped out of a thin mist into a heavier fog.” That’s a remarkable statement, since earlier Tolkien described walking in Torech Ungol “as it were in a black vapor wrought of veritable darkness itself that, as it was breathed, brought blindness not only to the eyes but to the mind, so that even the memory of … any light faded out of thought.” Perhaps by escaping and defeating Shelob, Sam broke the spell that wove this uncanny darkness.

Somewhere along the way, he must have sheathed the sword, because at the door to the Underway into Cirith Ungol, “He drew his sword again and beat on the stone with the hilt… The sword … blazed so brightly … that he could see dimly in its light.” Unfortunately, we don’t know whether he was still wearing the Ring! I think he was, and I think Christopher Tolkien thinks he was, too: In Reader’s Companion for page 898 (III: 174), Hammond and Scull write,

he drew out the Ring and put it on again – A reader pointed out to Christopher Tolkien that Sam put on the Ring at the end of Book IV, and now ‘put it on again’, but there is no intervening reference to him taking it off. Christopher Tolkien agreed that ‘this does seem to be a most remarkable case of the author nodding’ (Courtesy of Christopher Tolkien)

This phrase Courtesy of Christopher Tolkien means Christopher Tolkien himself provided Hammond and Scull this citation from his correspondence, and that it was not elsewhere referenced at the time of publication.

I think Sam’s sheathing Sting was omitted after he re-entered the tunnel just as his taking off the Ring was omitted. Logically, it seems he should have been still wearing the Ring and carrying the sword when he came to the stone door blocking the Underway; otherwise, he should have run smack into it, because he was running as fast as he was still able (he hadn’t eaten for at least a day, and he’d been running all the way from the top of the pass trying to catch the Orcs), and even though the darkness of the tunnel appeared as a heavy fog, he had no light other than the sword. But since Tolkien subsequently says, Sam “drew his sword again,” that cannot be; and later, he “put [the Ring] on again”.

In any case, Sam knew the Orcs would see Sting when he drew it despite his wearing the Ring.

 

[grimalkin]

Wow, what detailed replies, it seems that it is hard not to read deeply into Tolkien's tales due to his great attention to detail and his own depth of thought which at times seems coincidental and at other times not so. The author was a philosopher and seeing your replies is convincing me likewise for both of you. Alcuin you first mentioned the invisible and visible worlds, elves fading to be reborn in the created world, ok probably Tolkien was hinting at invisible spirits. His friend CS Lewis deals with this also in The Hideous Strength, however I think that the interaction and dynamics between the fictional fable tales which JRR Tolkien has created was meant to be complex & mystery at the same time, as created by himself. The more I think about your replies the more I'm cinvinced that each and every creature in Tolkien's world had varying attributes and powers to visualise the invisible world due to their own spiritual advancement...

 

[Ingolmin]

I believe that anything that Bilbo held in his hand or kept in his pockets when he wore the ring became invisible with himself except some special objects such as the Phial of Galadriel because it could exist in both the world at once. I think that the food would have also become invisible with Bilbo when he wore the ring. Sting was definitely not visible because if it was how could have Samwise Gamgee killed the orcs so easily in the Dark Tower. The spiders could have seen it when Bilbo would have taken off the ring. There is a possibility that these Great Spiders could see the light of the sword due to some power in them as Ungoliant was their ancestor.