Catholic Perspective on The Lord of the Rings

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I know it has been discussed (as it should) that Tolkien's works are fundamentally from a Catholic perspective. As a practicing Catholic myself, these discussions thrill me. Here is a video that goes through some of the main themes for anyone who is interested:

Also note: Joseph Pearce has written several books on this topic, and I consider him to be well-educated in it's meaning.

 

[Olorgando]

Also note: Joseph Pearce has written several books on this topic, and I consider him to be well-educated in it's meaning.

I have Pearce's 1998 book "Tolkien - Man and Myth", which provides some otherwise probably neglected perspectives, neglected mainly in criticism hostile to JRRT's works (though also neglected, it is true, by some of his supporters among critics).

 

[Sons of the Woodland King]

I know it has been discussed (as it should) that Tolkien's works are fundamentally from a Catholic perspective. As a practicing Catholic myself, these discussions thrill me. Here is a video that goes through some of the main themes for anyone who is interested:

Also note: Joseph Pearce has written several books on this topic, and I consider him to be well-educated in it's meaning.

I'm just here to give a giant Hobbit Hug from one practicing Catholic to another. Thank you for the video link!

 

[1stvermont]

I know it has been discussed (as it should) that Tolkien's works are fundamentally from a Catholic perspective. As a practicing Catholic myself, these discussions thrill me. Here is a video that goes through some of the main themes for anyone who is interested:

Also note: Joseph Pearce has written several books on this topic, and I consider him to be well-educated in it's meaning.

I loved his Bilbo's and Frodo's journey. I receive his newsletter and intend to follow him on his Chesterton, Lewis, and Tolkien pilgrimage one day.

Perhaps a cheap shot here, but my new book has an in-depth look at Catholicism's influence on Tolkien and Middle-earth.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tolkien/a-new-perspective-on-j-r-r-tolkien-and-middle-earth

 

[Gloranthan]

Check out Bradley Birzer, he's a Catholic Tolkien fan and has very interesting views. I believe he's been on The Tom Woods Show (Catholic) as well as the Babylon Bee (Christian) podcast.
For example, https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/art/j-r-r-tolkien-s-sanctifying-myth.HTML

Bradley J. Birzer: Tolkien’s Mythology

The incarnate angel of Tolkien’s mythology, Gandalf the Grey, said it well in a conversation with Frodo. “I wish it need not have happened in my time,”...

theimaginativeconservative.org

 

[Sons of the Woodland King]

I'm putting this here and hoping it's not controversial and not opening up to forbidden religious discussion. (If it's in violation somehow, please delete!)

I recently found out that there is a movement to call for the beatification and eventual canonization of Tolkien. I won't post any links here, but you're interested, you can Google and see how far along the movement is in the process (it's basically at ground zero), and what you can do to participate, if you'd like to.

As a Catholic, I just think putting Mr. Tolkien up there with the rest of the saints would be incredibly cool. Assuming he passes the process, of course. For those not familiar with the process, he has to have at least 2 miracles attributed to him/his intercession, confirmed by the Vatican.

Personally, I know if he makes it through beatification, I'll start asking him for his intercession with my writing struggles and disasters! Haha. Even "Blessed JRR Tolkien" has a nice ring to it. 😍

 

[1stvermont]

I'm putting this here and hoping it's not controversial and not opening up to forbidden religious discussion. (If it's in violation somehow, please delete!)

I recently found out that there is a movement to call for the beatification and eventual canonization of Tolkien. I won't post any links here, but you're interested, you can Google and see how far along the movement is in the process (it's basically at ground zero), and what you can do to participate, if you'd like to.

As a Catholic, I just think putting Mr. Tolkien up there with the rest of the saints would be incredibly cool. Assuming he passes the process, of course. For those not familiar with the process, he has to have at least 2 miracles attributed to him/his intercession, confirmed by the Vatican.

Personally, I know if he makes it through beatification, I'll start asking him for his intercession with my writing struggles and disasters! Haha. Even "Blessed JRR Tolkien" has a nice ring to it. 😍

The problem is I dont think Tolkien would agree with declaring him a Saint, of course, I guess they say that about all of the saints. I love the idea but I am not sure we should base these choices based on popularity or how much we personally like them

 

[Olorgando]

I don't know where such statistics can be found - Wikipedia's list is large (and not limited to Roman Catholic saints), but may not be exhaustive, and it does not differentiate between clergy and non-clergy. In a sense, laypeople involved in church-affiliated lay organizations might be considered "extended clergy". My guess is that the list of saints is heavily weighted towards such an inclusive "extended clergy" list (which would include all those ordained, as well as non-ordained members of monastic or other religious orders - fratres and nuns, for example). Just being a member in good standing with your parish is probably too thin a "portfolio" to have much chance to be considered for any formal processes.

 

[Keva]

Tolkien Catholicism in the books goes much further than anyone can expect or realize. These are apocalyptic books, related to our time...
Depends on how much you know and realize the current Catholic situation in the world, is the level you are on with Tolkien also...

 

[Deimos]

Pax to Keva, but I'll venture to say that Tolkien's works were not Apocalyptic; that is, he didn't write them with the apocalypse in mind.
If anything he wrote them with a "looking backward" view.
He wanted to write a supposed mythology of England, the operative word being "supposed".
His stories are a personal conjecture, broad in both time and space, of what a mythology of England could be, rooted in his own studies of mediaeval and pre-mediaeval history and epic literature.
His invented languages followed nearly on the heels of his story outlines because he well knew you could not have a history, even a mythological one, without having an intimately associated language, (or languages) to describe the culture (in the most comprehensive sense) of the societies in his stories.

 

[Keva]

Pax to Keva, but I'll venture to say that Tolkien's works were not Apocalyptic; that is, he didn't write them with the apocalypse in mind.
If anything he wrote them with a "looking backward" view.
He wanted to write a supposed mythology of England, the operative word being "supposed".
His stories are a personal conjecture, broad in both time and space, of what a mythology of England could be, rooted in his own studies of mediaeval and pre-mediaeval history and epic literature.
His invented languages followed nearly on the heels of his story outlines because he well knew you could not have a history, even a mythological one, without having an intimately associated language, (or languages) to describe the culture (in the most comprehensive sense) of the societies in his stories.

As I said on the other thread, that depends on one's realization of Tolkien's knowledge and Catholic knowledge on apocalypse...
I wish I had more time on the internet... to write long posts and explain. For example Catholics minds were preoccupied with idea that hell is inside the earth, a physical place. Catholic apparitions and apocalypse are going in the direction thar we will/are being invaded by demons/aliens, from inside earth, and outside space. In famous Fatima's apparitions, Virgin Mary opened up the crust of the earth and showed that hell is inside. There is this series of book that is attributed to Tolkien, but cant be confirmed. Then again, if one realizes the role of Jewish people in Catholic history, if he ever wrote that book, he surely wouldn't released it after WW2. nor would he play himself with pseudonyms. It just wasn't the time...

 

[Deimos]

As I said on the other thread, that depends on one's realization of Tolkien's knowledge and Catholic knowledge on apocalypse...
I wish I had more time on the internet... to write long posts and explain. For example Catholics minds were preoccupied with idea that hell is inside the earth, a physical place. Catholic apparitions and apocalypse are going in the direction thar we will/are being invaded by demons/aliens, from inside earth, and outside space. In famous Fatima's apparitions, Virgin Mary opened up the crust of the earth and showed that hell is inside. There is this series of book that is attributed to Tolkien, but cant be confirmed. Then again, if one realizes the role of Jewish people in Catholic history, if he ever wrote that book, he surely wouldn't released it after WW2. nor would he play himself with pseudonyms. It just wasn't the time...

Again, Pax. But....in this case seeing is believing. Produce the work, prove that Tolkien wrote it, and I'll believe it.
But, quite frankly, I don't think he was a believer in Apocalypticism.

From a letter to Amy Ronald dated December 15, 1956 (recorded as Letter 195 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien) he said the following about the theme: “Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ - though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.”

Tolkien wrote from the heart. What he says of the nature of good and evil in his works he believed to be true in real life, this life.
When he said he did not expect History to anything be anything but a long defeat he believed it not just with respect to ME but also to this earth and human history. If he believed it true only with respect to ME, he would not have included the statement about being RC, because his RC beliefs would have been irrelevant to his statement concerning ME.
The "long defeat" implies a long view of Human History. Yes, we are moving toward "an end" but, again, I think that Tolkien saw it quite distant ...'way far off.

And Catholic Church has never taught that the end times are imminent, not in the past 2000 years, nor in Tolkien's time, nor ours.
Any specific prediction of the eschaton the CC considers "private revelation"; not doctrinal, not a de fide teaching.** The church is silent about such matters; a Catholic is free to believe a current prophesy, or not.

**What has occurred at Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, Medjugorje, etc., all the visions of anyone who lived after 100 AD (and writings based on those visions) are also considered by the CC to be private revelations. Again, one is free to believe them, or not.

 

[Olorgando]

His invented languages followed nearly on the heels of his story outlines because he well knew you could not have a history, even a mythological one, without having an intimately associated language, (or languages) to describe the culture (in the most comprehensive sense) of the societies in his stories.

Letter 294 of 08 February 1967 puts it the other way around. He wrote it in response to the draft of an article by two interviewers, correcting what he saw as misunderstandings.

"... I think the passage would be more intelligible if it ran more or less so:
'The imaginary histories grew out of Tolkien's predilection for inventing languages. He discovered, as others have who carry out such inventions to any degree of completion, that a language requires a suitable habitation, and a history in which it can develop.'"

 

[Deimos]

Letter 294 of 08 February 1967 puts it the other way around. He wrote it in response to the draft of an article by two interviewers, correcting what he saw as misunderstandings.

"... I think the passage would be more intelligible if it ran more or less so:
'The imaginary histories grew out of Tolkien's predilection for inventing languages. He discovered, as others have who carry out such inventions to any degree of completion, that a language requires a suitable habitation, and a history in which it can develop.'"

Yeah.. I wondered even as I wrote it if I had gotten it backward (I was writing from memory) ...but I knew that language and history/culture are closely intertwined, so one had to come pretty closely behind the other.
Edit: Yes, it has to be that way, language, then history (even in the real world) .

 

[Keva]

Again, Pax. But....in this case seeing is believing. Produce the work, prove that Tolkien wrote it, and I'll believe it.
But, quite frankly, I don't think he was a believer in Apocalypticism.

From a letter to Amy Ronald dated December 15, 1956 (recorded as Letter 195 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien) he said the following about the theme: “Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ - though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.”

Tolkien wrote from the heart. What he says of the nature of good and evil in his works he believed to be true in real life, this life.
When he said he did not expect History to anything be anything but a long defeat he believed it not just with respect to ME but also to this earth and human history. If he believed it true only with respect to ME, he would not have included the statement about being RC, because his RC beliefs would have been irrelevant to his statement concerning ME.
The "long defeat" implies a long view of Human History. Yes, we are moving toward "an end" but, again, I think that Tolkien saw it quite distant ...'way far off.

And Catholic Church has never taught that the end times are imminent, not in the past 2000 years, nor in Tolkien's time, nor ours.
Any specific prediction of the eschaton the CC considers "private revelation"; not doctrinal, not a de fide teaching.** The church is silent about such matters; a Catholic is free to believe a current prophesy, or not.

**What has occurred at Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, Medjugorje, etc., all the visions of anyone who lived after 100 AD (and writings based on those visions) are also considered by the CC to be private revelations. Again, one is free to believe them, or not.

I can't prove it and therefore I'm not going to share links to anything. You have an entire thread on it on Reddit. Personally, I think he did write it cause it sounds like him, just not writing for his children, and writing for the grown-up matter. That's the best proof. You can't copy someone's soul. There is this threatening darkness in LOTR, that is the element that attracts people to read it. Only Tolkien could produce that effect and that's how I know its him. Stephen King could never produce it, as much as I love him, or any other writer from tens of those who tried to copy Tolkien.

 

[Deimos]

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

--Sherlock Holmes (A Scandal in Bohemia)​

 

[Keva]

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

--Sherlock Holmes (A Scandal in Bohemia)​

Yes but Sherlock Holmes successfully solved cases only in a movie...


.

 

[Deimos]

Yes but Sherlock Holmes successfully solved cases only in a movie...


.

Well, no, that is not quite true.
He actually solved cases in all 56 shorts stories and 4 novels 😉 (which, btw predate any movies by several decades, at least.)
However, be that as it may, merely because a fictional character articulates a truth doesn't invalidate that truth. (cf. any works of Homer, any stories by Chaucer, any plays of Shakespeare and, I dare say, any fictional works of JRRT....I could go on)
It really is imprudent to state something as being true until one has at least some indisputable evidence to back it up.

 

[Amon Rudh]

It really is imprudent to state something as being true until one has at least some indisputable evidence to back it up.

And extraordinary claims require exceptional evidence. My (well actually science's) take is that something is only true for the time being until new evidence creates the new true.🙂

 

[Amon Rudh]

I'm atheist but found the observations in the original video interesting as I often do with such discussion. I am sure given Tolkien's background in Christianity, that he must have encompassed elements of this in his writings but there is always more than one way to view correlation. I am in the process of wading through the wider Tolkien Middle-earth books (such as HOME) and perhaps there is some confirmation from 'the horse's mouth' so to speak within those volumes.
Such analysis as per the video link, does not make it a religious text (to my mind at least) and it certainly does not challenge my general viewpoint on religion.
As for sainthood, what two Tolkien miracles are claimed?
All very interesting though, thanks for posting 🙂