Celeborn: Wisest 🧝elf in ME?

[BlackCaptain]

So are you sayin that she has foresight and sees a gray mist? What exactly does this gray mist represent? The gray mist is a metaphor. Her vision of Gandalf is blurred, so she cant see him. Like a mist. She cannot see Gandalf. What does being old have to do with it?

Someone help us! put an end to our juvenile debate! lol

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by MorgulKing
So are you sayin that she has foresight and sees a gray mist? What exactly does this gray mist represent? The gray mist is a metaphor. Her vision of Gandalf is blurred, so she cant see him. Like a mist. She cannot see Gandalf. What does being old have to do with it?

Someone help us! put an end to our juvenile debate! lol

You are totally right. There, your debate is ended.

DurinLongBeard, what exactly are you trying to prove by this great mist? Try to be more coherent with your thoughts please!

 

[DurinLongBeard]

lol. I don't know, the mist seems to be covering my brain now also. I can't explain what i was getting at, i just think that without the ring Galadriel would not be as wise as Celeborn. But lets end this little debate. You are right MorgulKing!!

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

MorgulKing definitely wins this round.

Galadriel IS the wisest Elf in Middle Earth. Her ring allowed her to preserve and uphold the beauty of Caras Galadhorn, as well as the Wood surrounding it. That's really ALL it did. She learned most of her 'vision' and 'predicting' skills, as well as keeping her borders defended from Melian. Remember the Girdle of Melian? Galadriel was in Doriath with her, and learned much from her, as they spent a lot of time together. Melian was a Maia, and probably helped Galadriel to see far into the future, as well as pry into the minds of others.

No Elf would have been more terrible and powerful than Galadriel if she wore the One Ring. Notice Tolkien ONLY presented HER (out of the Elves anyway) with the opportunity to take it, I think he was trying to show her immense power by doing so. She was also the last Elf on ME that was a Noldor, and one of the only ones that had seen the light of the Two Trees. I think Cirdan was older than she, but more powerful? No, not by a long shot.

 

[Ithrynluin]

While Melian undoubtedly taught Galadriel much about keeping your realm safe, and Galadriel learned much wisdom from her...
the gift of insight into the minds of others was with her from her very birth, as it says in UT.

 

[redline2200]

I know what your saying Dáin Ironfoot I, but you can't really get around the fact that Galadriel said Celeborn was wiser than her. I realize she has more of a background than he does, but I don't think Galadriel would just flat out lie to everyone and say Celeborn was wiser. What was the point of her saying it if it is not true?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Perhaps Celeborn is considered wisest in a certain area of knowledge, experience, advice. This is not stated, so just a random thought.

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Well lets just say that Mama G is very humble

But, as I may point out, at the time (and mindset) of this book, women were not accustomed to being equal to men. I think this could have something to do with it. Although... Galadriel was reported as being (as stated in the UT) the fairest, wisest, and most physically fit behind Feanor of the Noldor...

So thats pretty cool... she is definitely wiser than Celeborn, thats all there is to it! Remember.. it was she and ONLY she that sympathized with Gandalf and encouraged the others in the White Council to listen to him about destroying the Necromancer earlier ( I dont remember why it didnt work, but it is true )

Not even Elrond or Celeborn took Gandalf's words to heart at that time... as stated in the Sil I believe.

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Some quotes:

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before the days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle Earth.

Hmm... mightiest and fairest...not Celeborn, but GALADRIEL. And in terms of mighty.. I believe it has to do with power of the mind and spirit = wisdom & knowledge, and not physical might, as well... she is rather old!

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
But the red ring remained hidden, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been commited.

Funny? I don't see Celeborn mentioned! Don't you think that Celeborn if he were the wisest Elf in ME be told the location of this Ring of Fire? O wait... he's NOT the wisest Elf in ME, and certainly not the mightiest, as stated before in the above quote!

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Galadriel indeed had wished that Mirthrandir be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was known great...

Funny? Why didnt Celeborn see Saruman's treachery and stand alongside his wife if he were so wise? Well.. thats because he ISN'T WISE! Ahh!!! DUMB ELF!

 

[redline2200]

First, show me the quote in UT, where it states Galadriel as the wisest elf in ME. It is obvious that being Mighty does not make you wise! Gandalf is stated as the wisest of the Wizards(and Maiar for that matter), yet when they first appeared in ME everyone knew Saruman was mightier! Might does not imply wisdom. As for this:

I believe it has to do with power of the mind and spirit = wisdom & knowledge, and not physical might, as well... she is rather old!

In case it slipped your mind, Galadriel IS AN ELF. Age would have no effect on her strength.

Secondly, I actually think you have a pretty good argument, and you are probably right, but there is one thing you said that irked me:

Well.. thats because he ISN'T WISE! Ahh!!! DUMB ELF!

He isn't wise???? What in the world was going through your mind to make the statement that CELEBORN IS NOT WISE??!!?? According to you, Galadriel is the wisest elf in ME (which she quite possibly could be), so if the WISEST elf in ME, said that her husband is wiser than she is, then it is obvious that he knows a thing or two! He is the one AND ONLY Lord of Lothlorien, the fairest and most protected place in ME; I wouldn't refer to a person in that title as "dumb." Obviously Galadriel saw something in that "dumb elf" to marry him.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by DurinLongBeard
And also, through the ring Galadriel was able to communicate without talking and to see things that people think. She also can tell everything within the fences of Lothlorien.

The 'telepathic' communication was not an effect of the rings. This is a 'natural' ability, called osanwe of all minds in Ea with some limitations and on capabilty. There is an extensive essay entitled Osanwe-kenta "Enquiry into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT that was published in the linguistc journal Vinyar Tengwar 39, see: www.elvish.org for ordering info.

Also note that in RotK, Many Partings, it says speaking of Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel and Celeborn: "If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." This takes place after the destruction of the One Ring, thus the Three have lost their power, and Celeborn did not have a Ring in any event.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

JRRT in an essay on Cirdan (published in PoME) wrote: "He is said in the Annals of the Third Age (c.1000) to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle-earth. This does not include the Istari (who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn."
This is referring to the statement in the Appendices to LotR: "For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return."

 

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Ah redline, I was only being fecitious. Of course Celeborn is wise, but I was merely implying that Galadriel was much wiser. Notice the simley winky face thing at the end!

People on this forum can NOT take a joke these days...

 

[redline2200]

I kind of realized it was a joke, but I was judging by some of the expressions you were using that implied your being serious. It is hard to differentiate sarcism and seriousness when I can not see or hear you.