Celtic Myths and LoTR: Parallels?

[Helcaraxë]

I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR

Ex:

Valinor = Spirit Land

Valar = Gods

Oisin = Beren

Taliesin = Bilbo

The Dagda = Manwe

Dana = Yavanna

Melkor = Balor of the Evil Eye

Dark Lords = Fomorians

The list goes on. Perhaps Tolkien drew more heavily than I previously thought from Celtic Lore. Comments?

 

[elffriend]

I have always felt that Tolkien had leaned towards the Celtic myths in his writings, but most peopl have not agreed with me, I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks this.
There is another myth from the Celtic mythology that Tolkien had possibly read and that is the one about, Owain and Luned, Luned gave Owain a ring of invisability.

 

[Kelonus]

Other things do give people thoughts to write books.

 

[Starflower]

I know for a fact that Tolkien drew his inspiration for the story of Turin Turambar very heavily from a story in the Finnish mythology. It doesn't make him any less of a writer, on the contrary , it is a good write who can incorporate myths and legends into his own writing .



Starflower

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, it seems so... Tolkien was truly inspired by the ancient Icelandic and Nordic myths.
But let's not forget that his intention for writing his legendarium was to create mythology and in which myths there are no supreme gods, goddesses of the earth and gods of evil...? Every nation on this planet has the roots of its culture in ancient myths and legends and the "picture" of pagan gods is present almost everywhere.
So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact inspired by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?
Besides, we are all humans after all. What one writes surely comes from his mind but this particular mind is for sure influenced and in fact formed and featured under the influence of the society around. Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf and by some others... But what he wrote is just..... outstanding for the masterpiece of submitting the story and for the unlimited flight of his imagination - so strong that one can only follow and enjoy.... Right?

 

[Kelonus]

I know when I write my stories, it gives a great feeling. One in which I appreciate and want to tell others, but the way you see and try to have them see it doesnt work out, which kind of sucks.

 

[elffriend]

I did not mean to imply that Tolkiens writings were anything but Great masterpieces, which were meant as a mythology for England. What his influences were makes no difference, as most mythologies, whether Norse, Irish, or Celtic, have many parallels, and are very similiar, the names and places maybe different, but the stories are all about great heroes and villians, good and evil, strength and power, and the ability to do what is deemed to be the right thing.

 

[Starflower]

So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact inspired by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?

I do agree that he "produced" the great masterpiece that we know as the world of Middle-earth, and yes he was inspired by Scandinavian sagas, but what I meant was that as the myths and legends are jsut that , there are no copyright issues, and the story I was referring to is called "Kullervo" , and it is almost exatly the same as tale of Turin. Tolkien himself admitted being very strongly influenced by these legends, and he saw nothing wrong in incorporating them into his own stories.

Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf

Icelandic people are jsut that, Icelandic. The island was populated by people from all over Scandinavia, but that was a couple of thousand years ago... and Beowulf is most definitely not a Finnish heroic tale it's origin's are in the British Isles



Starflower

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Well... about Beowulf... you surely must know much better than someone from the far south-east Perhaps this is why I find the mythology of the northern peoples so interesting - much different from what we grew up with here in the Balkans

Anyway, I just wanted to add that I have read somewhere what Tolkien himself said once about being influenced by the Nordic sagas - (I can't quote exactly) ....that whenever he read a saga or a legend or a tale he found a burning desire within himself to write a similar thing.
I guess most people feel the same way - both when they read what Tolkien had once read and reading Tolkien himself! This "burning creative desire" becomes so strong! .......
But can one always tell the story in such a masterful way as Tolkien did?.......
***

What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe...

I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?

 

[Lantarion]

Just to elaborate a little on Starflower's excellent point, the story of Kullervo is only a small part of the collection/collective of ancient Finnish (mostly Karelian) legends and beliefs, collected by Elias Lönnrot, which is known as the Kalevala.
Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was Celtic (is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up!

 

[Lhunithiliel]

This is not and can not be a subject any doubt!

But what I'd expect from this thread is what I said in my previous post:

What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe...

I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?

 

[Starflower]

what is it exactly you would liek to know ? the parallels between Tolkien and the legends ?

care to be a bit more specific, cause there is a lot of similarities....

Starflower

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, thank you!

What I am so very much interested is to learn about those Celtic tales that have found some reflection in Tolkien's works and more than that - the historical backround of the Clets and their culture.

What I was thinking reading the posts in the present thread was that the Celts (if I'm not mistaken) were considered the natives on the British island. But they themselves had once come from Northern Europe. So, their culture must have derived from the culture of the Northern peoples.
So, you see, I'm looking for the whole historical "line", as history is the ground for the culture of a nation. Right?

So, it would be extremely interesting to trace the "roots" of a tale by Tolkien - does it have them deep back in the history of the island and its people or do they lie in the ancient culture of the Scandinavian peoples whose culture is said to have strongly influenced Tolkien.

Paralels! This is exactly what the thread is about! Right?
***********

Browsing through my favourite encyclopedia - the Tolkien Wiki, here is what I found.

OMG!!!!!
If I have to read ALL that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lantarion]

I'm not sure now, but I don't think the Celts came from Scandinavia..

 

[Starflower]

don;t think so either....us Scandinavians tend to either stay put or plunder further away, ie the coast of present day Canada

The Celts are Circaesir from Circaesya, who lived on the Sea of Grass in what is now west Kazakhstan until late in the second millennium B.C. They were by their own definition a linguistic group, but now they are a culture. Contrary to popular belief, they had nothing to do with European inhabitants known to archaeologists as the 'Beaker folk' and 'Battle Axe people'. The 'Urnfield people' farther east were Circaesir, and obviously related to the Celts. Their descendants integrated with Celts in central Europe

but there are so many mythologies and legends that it would be inconceivable to think that Tolkien wouldn't touch at least some of them in his work, after all he was a professor of the english language and studied old myths as part of his job/


Starflower

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh, thank you!

What I am so very much interested is to learn about those Celtic tales that have found some reflection in Tolkien's works and more than that - the historical backround of the Clets and their culture.

What I was thinking reading the posts in the present thread was that the Celts (if I'm not mistaken) were considered the natives on the British island. But they themselves had once come from Northern Europe. So, their culture must have derived from the culture of the Northern peoples.
So, you see, I'm looking for the whole historical "line", as history is the ground for the culture of a nation. Right?

So, it would be extremely interesting to trace the "roots" of a tale by Tolkien - does it have them deep back in the history of the island and its people or do they lie in the ancient culture of the Scandinavian peoples whose culture is said to have strongly influenced Tolkien.

Paralels! This is exactly what the thread is about! Right?
***********

Browsing through my favourite encyclopedia - the Tolkien Wiki, here is what I found.

OMG!!!!!
If I have to read ALL that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now "The Early History of Britain" wouldn't that be a nice topic for one of the lectures of your guild?

I'm probably not the best suited member to give a sketch of the British history - since I'm neither British nor am I well-read in British history - , but since none else did it here so far, I'll give it a try:

Britain was part of the European continent until some 7000 or 8000 years ago.

'In the days of the Great Kings when a man could still walk dryshod from Rome to York...'

HoMeXII

Megalithic "culture" probably came from Spain and/or France, then (~800BC) came the Celts who had spread all over Europe from about 2000BC. Next were the Romans, the Celts were forced westwards (Wales and Ireland), and northwards. Scots (from Ireland) came to the North where they and the Picts, who also had resisted the Romans, remained independent. When the Romans "officially left" again, a troubled period began, Saxons, Angles, Jutes and Danes were the new invaders from the European North. When those turmoils eventually had settled some (~1000 AD) the Normans (from north-west France) invaded what Tolkien now saw as "England".

Tolkien drew from the mythologies of all those - Greek/Roman, Celtic and Germanic (he disliked the term Nordic) - groups to create his "mythology", but he dedicated it to "England", the land of the "Anglo-Saxons" as he probably saw it and I think his own Saxon roots played a certain role in this...

Regarding the Celtic myths that are to some degree woven into Tolkien's tales, there's this book from Lesley Ellen Jones who elaborates quite ponderously on that issue...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Now "The Early History of Britain" wouldn't that be a nice topic for one of the lectures of your guild?

Indeed!
But, after I read what you have provided as a brief historical overview, I wonder.... Why don't YOU expand it and I'll "try" to find a place for your work within the tight schedule of the Lecture Round? I think, I'll talk Eri into it.

 

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Indeed!
But, after I read what you have provided as a brief historical overview, I wonder.... Why don't YOU expand it and I'll "try" to find a place for your work within the tight schedule of the Lecture Round? I think, I'll talk Eri into it.

No, thanks...

On the one hand it is clear that one of our British or Irish members would qualify much better for this task - maybe aided by a Scandinavian regarding the "Viking" and Danish influenced parts -, on the other hand I cannot commit to anything that laborous at the moment...

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Sure!
Why am I not surprised?!

 

[Rhiannon]

I think we can assume that Tolkien read Celtic mythology, and I certainly thing he borrowed from it, all though it might not have been intentional.

But mythology tends to repeat the same motifs and archtypes, so it's impossible to say what came from where unless Tolkien himself said.